11mm Gras

[abunaitoo]

I have a chance to pick up a nice rifle.
Suppose to come with some brass, but not sure how many.
Did some searching and found it can be made from 348, 8 lebel and 50-110.
The 348 and 8 lebel looks like it would be way to short.
50-110 cases are a little expensive.
Anyone shoot one of these?????
Are the short cases a problem????

[.455 Webley]

My Gras is On the long term projects list with some stock issues that leave me scratching my head. As for brass I opted to go with the buffalo arms pre formed brass. It was not cheap however 20 to 40 cases is a lifetime supply.

The bigger issue is how to deal with the typical 1870's military bolt action problem of a chamber too tight to fit a bullet wide enough to fill the bore.

[toot]

.455 Webley, now that sounds like a problem that I was not aware of in these guns?

[huntj3]

The Gras is going to require a chamber cast to reveal the secrets. Traditional loading of the Gras is a .433(?) boolit paper patched up to .444-.446. My Gras carbine has groove dia of .450 with a throat that could accept .452. Problem being is the brass selection.

The Lebel case is far too short but correct rim diameter. Expanding or fire forming 348 may allow for a larger boolit of that size, but will be slightly short as well at around 55mm. Necking down 50-110 is the easiest solution, but would not accept a larger boolit in my chamber for smokeless. Both 348 and 50-110 rims are smaller so extraction is weak. Some shooters may say the rim needs a bevel, however I have found it not all that necessary.

50-90 sharps can be used as the rim size is right, but you would need to thin the base of the cartridge to correct diameter.

To answer your questions, the shorter cases are just fine if you so choose. Please keep us updated on your progress!

[Thin Man]

It seems that you and I bump into the same projects all too often and here we go again. About 5-6 years ago a long time friend asked for my help in creating ammo for his 1877 French Gras rifle. This owner claimed he was a teen-ager working at a gas station when a customer drove on to the lot needing gas. Problem was - he had no money. He offered my friend a Gras rifle for a full tank of gas. In those days gas sold for around 19 cents a gallon so the investment was not much. They agreed to this trade and my friend owned a new-to-him rifle but no ammo. He kept the rifle all these years and finally convinced me to see if equipment (dies, etc.) and supplies (brass, boolits) could be found. Then the research began.

I fell into a "group buy" of dies for the 11x59mmR Grass rifle cartridge, also the 32 French Long pistol cartridge. These were Lee dies that were very low cost for specialty dies and got 1 set of each caliber. Buffalo Arms provided brass (formed from 50-110 Winchester parent cases). Their rims are too small to provide reliable extraction but they lock well into the chambers ready to be fired. I bought boolits on the web in .446" diameter already sized and lubed with a smokeless powder lube rather than a black powder lube (owner's choice). I found several older references on loading this caliber and all agreed on the following: determine the boolit weight you will be loading and look for loading data for that same boolit weight in the 45/70 cast boolit published charts. Load ONLY the STARTING powder charge weight for either IMR4198 (preferred) or IMR30301 (2nd choice) powder in your cases. These loads gave the rifle owner functional and safe ammo. He paid for all equipment and supplies and still has them with the rifle. He reports this rifle is a "hoot to shoot". Good luck with your project. If you need more detail or further discussion on this just PM me.

[GregLaROCHE]

This is interesting information about the chamber not being able to fit a boolit large enough to fill the bore. I’ve been keeping my eye out for one that pleases me. Has anyone tried to use a mold that casts a boolit that is similar to a heeled boolit? That way the case neck would stay the same, but the boolit diameter could be greater.

[ascast]

I used 348 blown out. It works just fine. Was there not another thread on this (Gras) just this wknd?

[.455 Webley]

Yes they do make a heeled design for these and the 71 mauser that has the same issue. Or you can use an undersized bullet and black powder. I have had success with hb bullets sized just small enough to chamber.

[huntj3]

This is interesting information about the chamber not being able to fit a boolit large enough to fill the bore. I’ve been keeping my eye out for one that pleases me. Has anyone tried to use a mold that casts a boolit that is similar to a heeled boolit? That way the case neck would stay the same, but the boolit diameter could be greater.

Yes, I’ve used the CBE heeled design that came with the Lee loader style tools from hccollection. They worked quite well but are an absolute pain to lube. If I was using black, I don’t think I would mind the slightly smaller boolit. I’m currently considering a slight neck turn on the 50-110 brass I have but it’s also not on my current projects to reload (low on primers).

[GregLaROCHE]

So am I assuming correctly, that the bores were oversized to compensate for BP fouling? Does paper patching have anything to do with it?

[abunaitoo]

Has anyone tried to sleeve a case to make it longer????
I found a case once that had an outer brass tube formed on it.
Forget what caliber it was, but it was fired a few times.

[ulav8r]

Haven't done it but George Nonte's book described it for several obsolete case conversions.

[abunaitoo]

Made an offer for it.
Now just waiting.
I'm thinking a hollow base boolet might be the best bet.
But I intend to use smokeless powder with a dacron filler.
I do have black powder, but cases don't seem to last long no matter how good I clean them.

[huntj3]

Looking back at this post, I do remember using the Lee 459-405-hb sized in my lube-a-matic to .452 and then sized the bottom two bands further to .446 with some success. Essentially forming it into a heeled boolit by not running all the way through.

I didn’t explore further due to supply shortage and load work up, but there was some promise to the couple shots I did.

[KShooter]

Restoring my late father's 1874MLE. Ammunition Artifacts produced perfect new brass, Accurate Molds custom made me a bullet casting die and added it to their catalog now Part Number 45-375G , I was able to purchase a set of LEE dies for 11x59r from a store in France (That was interesting). I cast the bullets today and now want to ensure that they re sized correctly. I am a bit new at this but am fairly competent in machining. The Cast Soft Lead bullets weigh in at 590 gr. (Bullet OAL - 1.100" / Nose Length - .487" / Nose diameter - .432" / Front band diameter - .455" / Rear band diameter - .443" ).

My question is sizing and seating the bullet. How Far? Please see photos. Any help is truly appreciated. I plan to load with 87 gr of ffg Goex.

[huntj3]

Kshooter,

You should be perfect on those measurements to bell the case and load up! You could try tumble lube or dip lubing the boolits. The heeled design throws the Lyman and Rcbs sizer options out.