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Thread: Rifled Musket Education

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Rifled Musket Education

    Not sure if this is the best place to post this or if the Military Rifles section would gain me more expert advice.

    Well due to having some very questionable friends I have picked up a pretty bad itch for an original rifled musket. The problem is despite 20 years of patched round ball black powder, and more then a few years of BPCR fun, I just don't know much about them. Can you point me toward some good resources for the modern shooter interested in this kind of thing?
    Book suggestions?
    Internet articles?
    Quality threads here?

    Also once the learning has gotten into full swing and the funds have been assembled where would you recommend starting to look for such things?

    Thanks for your time,
    .455

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    An original musket to shoot will need a bore scope to be sure the barrel is good. If your friends already shoot muskets start with them. Get your friends to help you decide what you want, and to help you look for it. Talk them out of some minie bullets and decide which design works for you. Get some musket caps; they are bigger than #11's. 2F powder is what a rifled musket needs (See "Friends"). Check the NSSA website. Start squirreling away every bit of pure lead you can find.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy

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    I've been in the N-SSA for 40 years and I shoot original muskets. The organization is the largest musket shooting group in the world with almost 3,000 members. Check out their website N-SSA.org. BTW I and others shoot FFFg in everything. Pistols to .69 Smoothbores.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    +1 ^ ^ ^ N_SSA

    Source for 0riginal rifled muskets and affiliated supplies - Lodgewood Mfg. - I have dealt with them a number of times over the years for parts, supplies and guns - always been very happy.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    If you're really serious about buying an original rifle musket you should go to the Maryland Antique Arms Collector show that is held in March in Baltimore. No modern firearms are allowed. Prices vary just like any other gun show but by shopping carefully you should be able to beat the on-line prices. You will have your pick of more muskets than you can imagine. As I was told, "if it isn't for sale there it isn't for sale anywhere". The fellow that told me that was absolutely right.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy

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    The MACCC show has 1,000 table last time I checked. Unbelievable, Picked up my Ballard there

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    I second the North South Skirmish Association. We shoot these critters in competition.

    You might think you know muzzleloading cause of patch round ball experience, but all that goes out the window went shooting minies. It's tons of fun and very addictive.
    A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
    Rudyard Kipling


    Palmetto Sharpshooters
    North South Skirmish Association
    NRA Muzzleloading Instructor

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Good points on starting to pick up musket caps now, and building up my pure lead stockpile.

    Lodgewood came well recomended, and I can drive down to save on shipping costs.

    To be honest, and pardon my ignorance but up until recently I didn't know N-SSA involved live fire competition. I was on the website and couldn't find a course of fire listed. Is it uniform across all the "skirmishes" or does each group have its own match?

    Before bombarding people with questions I like to have a good baseline knowledge built up, hence the request for a book recommendation or two.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    I bought a 70s Zouave repro at the end of last year and shot a lot of PRB out of it this summer. I will hunt deer with it next month. I had some random minies to try, but they did not shoot well. Did a bunch of research and minies will be next summer's project (have a couple molds now). The idea of shooting originals is neat.
    When you care enough to send the very best, send an ounce of lead.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Perhaps this would be a good read?
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Destr...edSellerId=972

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    A lot depends on how many shekels you're willing to part with. An original Springfield 1861/1863/1864 model, Lorenz, Enfield P-53 with a good shooting bore and the gun in nice condition will probably run $2,000.00+ unless you run into an extra sweet deal. The big internet places like Gun Broker-Guns International-Guns America most want top dollar for junk. David at Lodgewood is a good guy with a lot of talent, I don't know who writes the descriptions of his stock, but they're really liberal when it comes to condition, his prices aren't bad, I'm just saying since you're within driving distance, go in person and ask to drop a tiny light down the bore and judge for yourself. No-one's going to warrant an original as a shooter unless they've shot the gun themselves and can provide load information and targets. As said, the Maryland show is a great opportunity for at least a fair deal, as is the N-SSA National near Winchester VA, (Suttlers Row).

    Do you know what you want? There's a great deal of difference between the way a Springfield holds compared to an Enfield. Are you looking for a type of gun a certain regiment carried as of January 1863? If so I have books to provide that information. If not, try shouldering and acquiring the sights various models, see what fits you best, shoot them if you can. Something to consider, parts for Springfields are more numerous than for Enfields or any other imported weapon, and they're interchangeable, most imports were hand fit. The bores in Springfields tend to run BIG, .580-.585+. Sights on Enfields tend to be slightly more user friendly, but their higher comb stocks can be uncomfortable to some.

    Are you looking for just rifle-muskets, or include rifled-muskets like the 1842 .69 rifled and sighted muskets, or even rifles, like the Mississippi 1841, Remington 1863, Enfield P-58 Naval rifle? Or any of the above...They can all shoot great.

    Say you find a nice gun you like at a good price, but the bore is less than usable, there's Bob Hoyt in Fairfield PA. Bob has made modern steel sleeves for these guns and installed them for a long time, his work is very good, $250.00 + shipping, (might take a while, he's usually busy).

    Another place to keep an eye on, or better yet visit if possible, (only about 20% of their inventory is on line) ''The Horse Soldier'' in Gettysburg, PA. They recently had a pretty good LG&Y 1861 Special rifle-musket dated 1863 with a nice bore on line for $1,495.00. Some pitting around the bolster, lightly cleaned, but not bad. Worst part was someone applied a finish to the wood making it shiney. They're a high end dealer, but they got the goods. I was there in April, I would guess they had 50-75 original rifle-muskets in stock, plus another 50-ish rifles and muskets. They carry an impressive inventory with prices between several hundred dollars to tens of thousands of dollars depending on condition, rarity, and providence. Can't do a vacation to Gettysburg? Keep a close eye on their new inventory on line, but it goes fast, (be vigil, be patent, educate yourself).

    These are fun to shoot and collect, they're addictive even. They aren't cheap, neither are musket caps, powder, and molds, (which you'll probably buy more than one of).

    Best made rifle-musket? My vote would go to the U.S. 1864 Springfield. Most popular world wide? P-53 Enfield, it was the AK-47 of it's day, though the design was great, like the AK-47 quality could run from excellent to dismal.

    What else?

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Hellgate's Avatar
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    As to books "The Rifled Musket" is a great historical resource on the rifled musket. If you are planning on target shooting then low charges of FFFg are in order. If you are considering hunting with it then you need a patched round ball or a thick skirted minie like the 575213-OS or the 577611 530gr Lyman slug to handle heavy charges without flaring the skirt.
    Hellgate in Orygun
    With 16+revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap&ball.
    If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain
    ”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Hellgate's Avatar
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    You can get the book Nobade recommended for $8.76 here:
    https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?a...Dmusket%2520as
    Hellgate in Orygun
    With 16+revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap&ball.
    If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain
    ”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy

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    455 Webley. You're correct in that our course of fire isnt laid out on the BB.Nationals is 32 Clays on a backer, followed by 16 Hanging 4 inch tile, then 16 Hanging Clay Pigeons followed by 16 Hanging clay pots all at 50 yards against the clock. The final event is 11 6 inch hanging tile at 100 yards. About 200 Eight person teams compete at a normal Nationals. We also have individual paper targets and team events in Revolver, Carbine, Breechloading Carbine, Smoothbore, Single shot rifle, Mortar and Cannon, both smooth and rifled.
    Regional musket matches are very similar. All have the Clayboard and at least two standard events. Usually totalling 5 or 6 events.
    If anyone has any questions regarding the N-SSA I will do my best to answer.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    As usual with this group I am humbled by the helpful recommendations and kind offers I have received over the last few days. I have a small library of used books on muskets coming that should consume my limited reading time for a few months to come.

    The N-SSA seems to be the largest group involved with this kind of thing and could be a lot of fun. I appreciate it's members who have kindly shared some insight here.

    It's now time to hit the books, build up the fun funds fund, and try any and all muskets that cross my path.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    What you buy is your business, if you don't mind I'll drop a few hints on condition and a few other things. I'll try and guide you to get what you pay for, and not pay more for what you get.

    Buy the gun, not the story! I see a lot of junk out there with high price tags which say, ''Confederate used!'' I don't care! I'm not paying three times what it's worth just because you invented a story, (or fell for one yourself) and wrote ''Confederate used'' on a tag! Some of these guns did see service on both sides. How is one to prove, ''Confederate usage'' of a common 1861 Springfield? I ask for certified documentation, lacking that I ask, ''Pried it out of the cold stiff fingers of a dead Reb yourself, did ya?'' (that usually ends any civil conversation right there and it's time to move on). There are people who will take a $1,200.00 junker Springfield and tag it, ''Confederate Used'' and ask $4,000.00 for it. There are some guide lines though, A-if it's got a name, initials, rank, regiment carved into the wood, it could be Confederate used. A Yank soldier would have faced severe punishment for defacing Gov't property and would have only done that IF he purchased the weapon himself or bought it after the war upon discharge. B-A small discrete letter stamped on the belly of the stock just forward of the trigger guard ''can'' be a sign of a ''Collected and Cleaned'' weapon, (it's something freshly researched by Steve Knott who has a book out on it). From what I see from reputable dealers, they will bring this to attention and may raise the price a little according to the gun and condition, but not near double or more, (10-20% maybe). One true, but extraordinary example is a member on another forum who bought a P-53 Tower Enfield marked with initials and unit. He paid a fair going price for the gun, not jacked up. He did some research and came up with a name and rank of the soldier in that regiment. I took the name and on a WILD gamble found this soldier was mortally wounded at Gettysburg on July 3, 1863 in ''Picketts Charge'' near the Brian farm, what hospital he died at, grave number at the hospital, and reinternment grave number in Richmond Hollywood cemetery! Looking at a map, I even concluded two possible Northern units may have inflicted the wounds that eventually brought about his death. That was very much not the normal. This rant doesn't include Confederate made arms, that's an entirely different animal, or ''J/S+anchor'' Enfields generally accepted to be Confederate purchase. Buy the gun, not the story.

    Condition-look closely and commit to memory what an excellent specimen looks like in detail. Look for sharp edges where there should be sharp edges, if rounded, chances are it was sanded by one of ''bubba's'' kin folk. Some rounding from normal wear and use is okay on a shooter gun, even so on a U.S. gun there should be a visible cartouche, (2) on the flat opposite the lock. Be aware of cracks in the stock, particularly in the wrist area. Ask to remove the lower barrel band and check for a ''stretched'' stock, (one that's been pieced together and aged to match). Minor dents, dings, scratches, and even minor missing wood splinters are normal on a shooter grade gun. Look behind the bolster area for, ''burned out'' wood, a little is normal for a gun that's been there and done that, percussion caps caused it from normal firing, but excessive burn out is/was poor cleaning after firing. Musket caps of the day were hotter than what we now have, and very corrosive, plus the nipples were coned large allowing plenty of blow-back, (replace with a modern nipple designed to fire to the charge with little blow-back). Minor rust pitting around the breech, bolster drum is normal, at times making the date, (on a Springfield particularly) sometimes difficult to read, normal on a shooter grade gun. Screws should show little evidence of being turned, though some buggering is okay on a shooter. There should be NO vice markings around the barrel, and the breech plug tang should also be free of marks around the edges, (if there is, bubba was there!). On an Enfield pattern, no matter the maker except Enfield there should be no broad arrow markings, broad arrows with a crown, or V.R./V*R anywhere on it. That means British Crown property which were forbidden to be exported to either side during the war as England wished to remain neutral during the conflict. A genuine Enfield is a given as Crown property. The one exception is the ''Windsor'' American made P-53 type II Enfield possibly sold out of store as surplus prior to the American Civil War, but they're very rare to begin with and command high dollar because of their blood line and history.
    Bore condition should be sharp from breech to muzzle, some scattered light pitting won't affect the accuracy, but must be cleaned well after firing or residue will collect in any small pit and cause further pitting, (as it attracts moisture). Great gun at a good price, but a not so great bore?..Bob Hoyt.

    Edit to add, drop a small light down the bore on one of these and you'll see the muzzle end the rifling is shallower than the breech. It's not worn, it's the way they're supposed to be, .015'' deep at the breech progressively getting shallower to the muzzle end to .005'' deep. This facilitates loading as fouling builds up and keeps the weapon shooting accurately.

    A Springfield is a Springfield is a Springfield, even when it's a contract gun. The U.S. Gov't made no difference in issue, Springfield, Harpers Ferry, Contract, 1855-1865 were all issued the same if serviceable. Some dates bring better money, as well as some contracts. It's up to you to do your homework and ask questions. My interest in these arms is 50+ years old, and I keep learning everyday! When looking to buy something, I have reference books handy just in case I miss something. Claude Fullers book on the Civil War Rifle-musket is one of my Bibles.
    Last edited by Ithaca Gunner; 09-06-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The information in this thread is "golden" and I would nominate it to be made a "sticky".
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by .455 Webley View Post
    Good points on starting to pick up musket caps now, and building up my pure lead stockpile.

    Lodgewood came well recomended, and I can drive down to save on shipping costs.

    To be honest, and pardon my ignorance but up until recently I didn't know N-SSA involved live fire competition. I was on the website and couldn't find a course of fire listed. Is it uniform across all the "skirmishes" or does each group have its own match?

    Before bombarding people with questions I like to have a good baseline knowledge built up, hence the request for a book recommendation or two.
    There are two types of Skirmishes- National and Regional. National will always follow a standard "course of fire" and use 8 man teams except for smoothbore and revolver. I'll use the musket as an example. For each arm, there are generally 5 events. To get all the shooters through each event may have several relays.

    First event in musket- the "pigeon board". 32 clay pigeons mounted on a cardboard backer at 50yd. That's an 8moa target shot offhand against the clock with a max time of 5 minutes. Penalties for unbroken clays.

    Second event in musket- 16 hanging tiles, 4in square at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

    Third event in musket- 16 hanging clays at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

    Fourth event in musket- 16 clay "pots" at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

    Fifth event in musket- 10 hanging tiles 6in at 100yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

    Regional Skirmishes vary the target sequence and type a bit and are usually shot with 5 man teams and reduced teams in revolver and smoothbore.

    In this type of competition, accuracy and speed are king. To be competitive, you need both at the same time. And while you're trying to be fast and accurate, so are the rest of your team and all the other teams that are on the line as well. How many teams on the line in a relay? Depends. At Nationals, our range can accommodate 73 teams at once though that's a rare thing. At Regionals, it depends on the range. At our range in Statesville, NC, we have places for 8 teams.

    I'll say this as a certified Instructor. Nearly everything you know about round ball is pretty much useless shooting minies, especially if you're serious about hitting anything.
    A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
    Rudyard Kipling


    Palmetto Sharpshooters
    North South Skirmish Association
    NRA Muzzleloading Instructor

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Here's a video to give you an idea of what we do-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1qho8DLuw

    and yes, we shoot artillery live fire in competition as well. Being on a gun crew shooting live ammunition isn't something you get to do at most competitions.
    A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
    Rudyard Kipling


    Palmetto Sharpshooters
    North South Skirmish Association
    NRA Muzzleloading Instructor

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    That looks like a lot of fun. I will have to keep clear of that or else I may start hunting for a good shooter grade Burnside carbine.

    As a person who spent a lot of his youth doing grounds keeping work at an outdoor range with his dad, I have to ask. What happens to all those broken tiles?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check