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Thread: Rifled Musket Education

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Pigeon board first event at 50yds. team pulls the board down and slides it under the frame to catch ''most'' of the falling material from later events, then most teams come with a rake and clean up their area onto the cardboard backer, then a truck or tractor comes along and the boards and material are put on for the dump. Probably the most difficult thing to clean up are the 2x4x4 wood hanging targets at some regionals, they burst into pieces and fly all over the place.

  2. #22
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    I am looking at a few online retailers who deal with these. It has me wondering if any of these places have reputations that I should be steering clear of. Particularly curious if you have a first or second hand story of questionable practices from a seller. I don't want to turn this into a thread bashing sellers and small business owners. But if you know of a questionable seller I would like to hear about it. Feel free to message me if you don't want to share a negative experience in the main thread here.

  3. #23
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    .455 Webley, many teams stake a tarp under the frame before the match. Cleanup is easy and no bleeding fingers. Dave is correct regarding accuracy. It is a competition you need accurate reliable equipment. There are some issues with some of the Burnside brass available today from what I've read.
    Good luck

  4. #24
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    what are some of the issues with the BURNSIDE BRASS? I would like to know what to look for in them, before I purchase any of them. thanks'.

  5. #25
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    I hear the plastic \ nylon cases hold up very well considering.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    As far as dealers go, there's a few on places like, Guns International, Gun Broker, etc. I tend to ''generally'' avoid, but sometimes take a look at their stock, just in case. None that I know of are out and out thieves, you just have to know what you're looking at, what it's really worth, the flaws about the arm, and how the seller presents it. Some tend to be rather liberal, particularly when it comes to bore condition, some simply omit obvious flaws, like sight leaves missing, or sling swivels not there, ''strong rifling with some light pitting in places''-unless you can inspect the bore in person, or get a written statement they will refund your money if not satisfied with the bore, walk away. And my all time favorite, a worn piece of junk marked, ''possible Confederate used!'' and a price tag far above what the arm is actually worth. No kidding, jerkster! That could be truthfully applied to tens of thousands of arms used in that conflict. Some could be right, it was not unusual if a Southern soldier got his hands on a good gun, he might mark it with his initials, or even full name and unit, (a practice very much forbidden in the Northern armys). There are some weapons ''Collected'' from various battlefields, ''Cleaned'' or repaied at Confederate arms depots and so marked with a simple single letter stamp in front of the trigger guard. Reputable dealers may add somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% to the price if so marked, but not double + the price as some do on a ''hunch'' or story.

    Look for sharp edges where there should be sharp edges, wood or metal. Some pitting is normal, as is some nicks, scratches, dents, even small areas of missing wood, (these went through a war, and some show it more than others). Some stampings can be forgiven such as the date on a Springfield on the top barrel flat at the breech due to percussion cap erosion, same with the eagle stamp on the bolster on 1863/64 Springfields and Special Model 1861's as made by Colt, LG&Y, Amoskeg, these erode with usage, no big deal for a ''shooter'' grade arm. Avoid obvious ''bubba'' stuff, like someone used a pipe wrench and a non padded vice to remove the breechplug, and sanding the stock to where an 1861 Springfield looks like a Trapdoor around the lock mortise. I knew a ''modern gunsmith'' who not only sanded the stock of an 1861 Springfield, but blued it as well, the muzzle showed wear, so he cut the barrel back an inch and wanted the price of a clean untouched gun. One thing pretty normal is some wood burn out behind the bolster, you have to set your own limit for that, I consider about 1/16'' acceptable. It's normal with use, set your own standard, I've carefully laminated a piece of old walnut and shaped it with a file on one or two bad cases and looked good. American muskets, rifle-muskets, and rifled muskets left the manufacturer ''Armory Bright'' with the exception of the rear sight which was dull blue and on most 1864 models in particular, color case hardened locks and hammers. Learn what they looked like new and commit that to memory, educate yourself, don't be afraid to ask questions or have a mentor, and lastly, don't be afraid to walk away.

    They were only new once and degraded with use, some were fought with hard and remained on a battlefield for days before being picked up and cleaned to be returned to service. Some, like the men who carried them bear the scars of war and will never be the same again, some are unusable. Many were bored out and cut down for cheap shotguns after the war, some were hidden away to rust, a lot of 1864's were converted to .50 Trapdoors, and a very few were purchased by those who carried them upon discharge and lovingly cared for, for generations, (these are usually accompanied with leather gear, uniform pieces, and even the receipt of purchase-big bucks!).

    As for who do I trust, The Horse Soldier in Gettysburg. I've known and dealt with Sam and Wes Small for over 30 years. They will, (upon request) provide a letter of authenticity with your purchase within a month or so, (they're very busy). Trouble is, only a small percentage of their inventory is on line, and what is on line has already been picked through. I'm spoiled, I can go almost any day I choose and look at what they have, it's just over an hour drive for me. Their prices aren't usually the lowest, but they're not out to rob anybody either. It's not a hobby, it's their lively-hood and they have overhead and expenses probably in excess of the average large gun shop. They have to show a profit or not be there. I've seen higher prices for lesser arms from some hobby dealers on line, so I would say The Horse Soldier is fair in their pricing, (although sometimes I see a nice arm at a silly low price, and sometimes I see a not so nice arm at a price that makes me wonder if one of them had a bad night playing cards or something-you ignore those).

    What to expect to pay for the more common rifle-muskets?

    Wall hanger, non-shootable-around $800.00 +/-

    Low shooter grade, usually requiring a trip to Bob Hoyt for a liner, $1,500.00 +/- (usually + 2-300 hundred dollars)

    High shooter grade, shoot as is, but low collector grade, $2,000.00-$3,000.00+

    High collector grade, $4,000.00-$6,000.00 usually

    Prices for carbines, rifles, muskets, revolvers, etc. are in a different pricing structure and do not apply to the above.

    This is what to expect for around $1,500.00, (I had Bob Hoyt sleeve it, the bore was not shootable).

    U.S. Springfield 1863

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    Some wood burn out, but edges still sharp, eagle on bolster all but gone, some light pitting around bolster, all through honest wear and shooting during it's time in service.

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    Cartouches in tact, reasonable sharp edges on the wood, but some wear during it's time in service.

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    Breech shows normal usage and some pitting from percussion cap blast, stampings visable, but not perfect.

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    Hard to see, there is a sliver of wood missing along the barrel channel between the front and middle band, no problem to me as it happened during it's time in service, a battle wound. Click on pic for bigger view.

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    This is what to expect from a $1,500.00 Springfield or contract gun, some better, some worse this Springfield is average for the money.
    Last edited by Ithaca Gunner; 09-15-2021 at 10:29 PM.

  7. #27
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    I remember going thru a cedar closet at my Grandfathers. Couple of guns there. Shotguns and a Springfield. Don't remember the year (too long ago), probably the 70's, but I remember being drawn towards it. Also remember putting a wood dowel rod down the bore, then comparing it to where the nipple was. Quite a bit of difference. Figured it was still loaded and wondered how many decades it had been sitting that way.
    About two weeks before he passed away, I went to look at the Springfield again, as he said earlier he had left his guns to me. The closet was empty. I did end up with a couple of pump shotguns and a 22, but that was it. Gave the 22 to my cousin.

    Sure would like to have heard the story of where that Springfield came to be in the closet

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Somebody apparently wanted that Springfield and figured you had forgotten about it.

    Here's a high condition Enfield P-58 Naval Rifle.

    Sharp edges all around, color case, blue, no burn out. Remember, Springfields were Armory Bright during the 1860's.

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    A few nicks and scratches, but almost as new.

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  9. #29
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Here's an exception. P-53 Type II ''Windsor'' Enfield made in the U.S.A. by Robbins and Lawerence for the Brits during the Crimean War.

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    The old gal has seen better days, pitted it's entire length, stock has some serious gouges and oil staining, but remains pretty sharp, Hoyt liner in the bore, lock internals gone over. Not a junker by any means though due to who made it, rarity, date, (1856) use, and simply because I won more individual medals in the N-SSA with it then all the other guns I competed with combined, (over 30). It was and still is my favorite, and priceless.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    What is this?

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    Confederate Fayetteville Rifle type II 1862. Not an original, but a hand made contemporary copy with all the proper markings and cartouches. An original in this condition would possibly bring something in the lower-mid $40,000.00 range. I can't afford an original of one of those to shoot. How do you tell it's a copy at a glance? (besides looking just too good) Look closely at the barrel near the breech, you'll see a faint line going around it, (a patent breech). The barrel gives it away quickly as a modern made Dan Whitacre barrel. Typical price for a good quality hand made contemporary gun would be somewhere around $1,200.00 to around $1,750.00 an extremely accurate copy using some original parts, some high quality modern made parts give the feel of what being issued a new original would have been like in 1862...and it shoots fantastic!

  11. #31
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    An interesting thread for sure. Thanx to all for sharing,

    "Rifle-musket". People of their times sure like to confuse firearm terms, particularly when comparing the long guns of the 18th and 19th centuries, where in the 18th a "musket" (eg, Brown Bess, Fusile, etc) was a military version of the ubiquitous smoothbore/fowler, and a "smooth rifle" was just a smoothbore with a rear sight, and all sported flintlock ignitions. When the good minister Forsyth invented the percussion ignition in the earliest of the 19th era, that sparked lots of long gun changes. Awhile thereafter it appears we had the birth of the "rifle-musket" moniker.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    You have the musket-40ish inch barrel smoothbore, U.S. .69 paper patched buck and round ball.

    Rifle-musket-40ish inch designed and purpose build rifled barrel with sights. U.S. Models 1855-1861-1861 Special-1863-1864 Using the .58 ''Burton'' bullet. British Pattern 1851-Pattern 1853, using the .577 ''Pritchett'' bullet.

    Rifled-musket-40ish inch barrel, originally smoothbore, rifled sometime after, usually sights. U.S. Models 1842 rifled and, (most) sighted-1816 converted, rifled, and sighted using a .69 ''Burton'' style bullet.

    They love-love-loved the 17 inch triangular bayonet and the reach a 40ish inch barrel gave in conjunction with it as an infantry arm. The bayonet was so well thought of, it was also called the soldiers, ''side arm''.

    The 33 inch usually heaver barreled rifles were called, rifles. Intent was to issue them to the flank companies of a regiment and sometimes skirmishers or sharp shooters. This began to fade with the rifle-musket. Bayonets were of the saber variety up to 10 inches longer than triangular bayonets to make up for the shorter barrels, (these bayonets were unpopular with the troops unless serving as Dragoons-(mounted riflemen) because of the weight and excess length).

    I think Thomas Jefferson had something to do with the rough pattern for the first official pattern U.S. rifle, the 1803 Harpers ferry .54 doing so with a half stock and no provision for bayonet for the western expedition of Lewis and Clark, (he didn't want it to look like a military arm, but be of a uniform pattern). The 1817, ''Common rifle'' 1819 Hall rifle, and 1841, ''Mississippi rifle'' all were .54 intended to shoot round ball in a greased patch. The U.S. 1855 and later took the .58 Burton bullet as well as many earlier conversions to .58.

    Musketoon-muzzle loading short arm smooth bore or rifled, barrel around 24 inches, usually standard caliber as infantry weapon, issue to ships party, engineers, pioneers, artillery, and cavalry.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    This thread has turned into an educational experience. Thank you Ithaca for the eye candy and very descriptive statements on condition.

    Thanks to all for the book recommendations. Fullers book is a treasure, glad to have gotten my hands on a good used copy. Gibbons two books "The Destroying Angel " and "The English Cartridge" are fantastic reads that gave me a better perspective and cleared up a lot of my own misconceptions .

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy ResearchPress's Avatar
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    There’s a variety of rifle-muskets to choose from and some good advice above on purchasing an original arm. If you can, get to at least hold as many types as you can and check for ‘fit’ by trying in the shooting position you will adopt. Drop on stock varies, as does length. A rifle with more drop on the stock may better suit offhand and a straighter stock suit prone, particular if shooting long range. The sight placement / form also varies, for example the rear sight on the P.53 Enfield being quite close to the eye, while that on the Enfield Short Rifles is further forward - one may give a clearer sight picture than the other.

    The following regarding shooting may assist:
    Managing the Enfield
    Long Range Shooting with the Military Muzzle Loading Rifle

    Here in the U.K. we shoot muzzle loading military rifle in MLAGB National Championship and other matches at 50 yards to 600 yards.

    David
    www.researchpress.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Historical firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Ithaca Gunner's Avatar
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    Hello, David. Good to see you here again!

    He's quite right about the ''fit'' between Springfield and Enfield stocks. Myself, I kinda naturally fit with an Enfield for 20-some odd years and did my best shooting with one, until I buggered up my shoulder, now an Enfield feels uncomfortable at best while the Springfield now comes up more natural and painless for me, but that's a rare occurence. I'll add I made my best team event, (breakable targets) with a rifle-musket I didn't even like shooting, an 1861, 1862 dated Springfield. It always felt, sloppy to me, but a 4'' hanging tile event proved concentration and skill over the weapon. Somehow the tile had gotten sideways presenting a 1/4'' target at 50yds. Hold, breath, hold, front sight, squeeze and dust! Nailed it!..to my own amazement. The Colt, LG&Y, and Amoskeag Special Model 1861's hold somewhere between a Springfield and an Enfield. As David mentioned above, sight placement. On a Springfield they're pretty far back and young eyes generally work well with them, a P-53 may be an inch or so farther away, and a P-58, a lot farther away and suited for older eyes in my opinion.

    All this above information is geared for shooters, if you want what the 1st. Minnesota carried at Gettysburg, that would be an 1861 Springfield type according to E. Coats book on issuance as of early 1863, or possibly a Special Model 1861 as that's what appears to be on their monument at Gettysburg.

    I finally got a photo of the other side of the monument, they did make good effort to present the arms the Regiments used during the battle on the monuments, and that looks very much a Special Model 1861 to me rather than a Springfield or contract 1861. Possibly either is correct though. Click on the photo for a larger view, you'll see a curved butstock and ''S'' shaped hammer typical of the Special Model 1861.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check