Lots of discussion on caliber, load. But almost none on barrel length, twist rate

[Sixgun Symphony]

I been visiting various muzzle loading forums and there is alot of discussion about caliber and loads for big game. But almost no mention of barrel length and twist rate on performance.

If you are using a typical factory "Hawken" rifle with the usual 28" length barrel with 1/48" twist rate then one should be using the conicals like the T/C Maxi-Hunter as that barrel is really too short and too fast of a twist to get optimum performance with patched ball.

A factory "Hawken" rifle of the usual type produced by CVA, Investarms, and T/C really should have a .54 caliber, 33" length barrel with 1/72" twist rifling rather than the usual 28" length, 1/48" twist barrel. I would be much pleased if Investarms were to reintroduce their Model 120A rifle with the longer 33" barrel with 1/72" twist rifling. Make .54 caliber standard and don't bother with the smaller .45 and .50 calibers. Call this rifle "Big Elk Medicine".

[Edward]

I been visiting various muzzle loading forums and there is alot of discussion about caliber and loads for big game. But almost no mention of barrel length and twist rate on performance.

If you are using a typical factory "Hawken" rifle with the usual 28" length barrel with 1/48" twist rate then one should be using the conicals like the T/C Maxi-Hunter as that barrel is really too short and too fast of a twist to get optimum performance with patched ball.

A factory "Hawken" rifle of the usual type produced by CVA, Investarms, and T/C really should have a .54 caliber, 33" length barrel with 1/72" twist rifling rather than the usual 28" length, 1/48" twist barrel. I would be much pleased if Investarms were to reintroduce their Model 120A rifle with the longer 33" barrel with 1/72" twist rifling. Make .54 caliber standard and don't bother with the smaller .45 and .50 calibers. Call this rifle "Big Elk Medicine".

And you would be wrong (VERY) wrong ,get the right patch and right ball size and proper charge with proper powder you too could learn something most people know! A guy on youtube does it with a TC renegade al the time with video's to show you how , he"s forgotten more than most will ever know about sidelocks ! With the 1-48 twist he shoots amazing groups at amazing distance and explains it , he has a sticky on modern muzzle loader forums (sidelocks) , you might /will learn about the sidelock !/Ed

[Sixgun Symphony]

The term "sidelocks" seems like a term invented by inline users. Those are the guys who won't use the term rifle for any kind of muzzleloader because for them the word rifle means centerfire cartridge. Most don't realize that the term rifle really means rifled bore until it has been explained to them.

I have seen videos on YouTube by Idaho Lewis and he is using custom rifle barrels, often 32" and fast rifling twist for conicals. He did use a 1/70 twist custom barrel dropped into a T/C Renegade for accuracy tests with PRB.

T/C and other manufacturers advertised that 1/48" rifle twist was for using both conical and ball projectiles. Which really means one size fits no one. It is true that the original Hawken rifles were usually 1/48" twist rifling, I wish that I could have asked Sam and Jake Hawken why they did so.

[John Taylor]

Then a guy named Forsyth came along about the same time cartridge rifle were coming out. He wanted a high velocity round ball in 62 or 72 caliber with 1/4 twist in the length of the barrel ( about 1 in 108" ), very narrow lands and wide grooves. He was using powder charges that may have been close to 200 grains. I made a few of these barrels but one customer couldn't get it to group because after the first shot he developed quite a flinch.

[freakonaleash]

You do realize that most all of the antique KY rifles had a 1-48 twist rate. German Jeagers had 1 twist in the length of the barrel. These slow twists you're hyping are a modern thing.

[Sasquatch-1]

The term "sidelocks" seems like a term invented by inline users. Those are the guys who won't use the term rifle for any kind of muzzleloader because for them the word rifle means centerfire cartridge. Most don't realize that the term rifle really means rifled bore until it has been explained to them.

All the muzzleloader shooters I know use the term "Sidelock" to distinguish traditional firearms from the inlines not the other way around.

Also, I have a Traditions Hawkins from the mid 70's when they were still made in Conn. It is the the most accurate rifle I have including a custom mad rifle with a 1/66 42" Rice barrel. I only shoot patch ball.

[Sixgun Symphony]

All the muzzleloader shooters I know use the term "Sidelock" to distinguish traditional firearms from the inlines not the other way around.

Also, I have a Traditions Hawkins from the mid 70's when they were still made in Conn. It is the the most accurate rifle I have including a custom mad rifle with a 1/66 42" Rice barrel. I only shoot patch ball.

No one called them "sidelocks" until Tony Knight started marketing his modern inline rifles.


You are lucky to get such accuracy with a 1/48" twist rate rifling with PRB.

[Schreck5]

The only way I,very been able to get decent accuracy from a shorter 1-48 bbl using a PRB, was to use a lighter than normal powder charge. But then i,m not a big fan of the 1-48 twist. My opinion is worth every penny you paid for it.

[waksupi]

Then a guy named Forsyth came along about the same time cartridge rifle were coming out. He wanted a high velocity round ball in 62 or 72 caliber with 1/4 twist in the length of the barrel ( about 1 in 108" ), very narrow lands and wide grooves. He was using powder charges that may have been close to 200 grains. I made a few of these barrels but one customer couldn't get it to group because after th end, killled at lib first shot he developed quite a flinch.

I had a barrel cut at 1-120 years ago, using Forsyth's formula. .62 cal, killed at both ends.

[Good Cheer]

Ol' Ugly No.2
Many years ago I'd picked up a .50 Renegade that somebody had put TC scope mounts on it and then destroyed the bore with poor maintenance. The synthetic powder even took some of the factory finish off the mounts. Got the barrel recut for conicals*. The rifling has seven shallowly rounded grooves twice as wide as the lands. One turn in four foot twist. I'm putting it together with a Renegade stock that had the fore end shortened and the typical TC accuracy killing split through the thin wood by the lock bolt, now repaired with epoxy and steel screw pinning.
I'll be trying out the .54 Maxi-Hunter, REAL's and minies, both lubed and also paper patched.
Looking forwards to seeing how well I can group with it.

*That's what a lot of people call heavy blunt nosed boolits.

PS,
Got a .54 Great Plains Hunter barrel but this thing is ugly enough to have some character.

[Edward]

The term "sidelocks" seems like a term invented by inline users. Those are the guys who won't use the term rifle for any kind of muzzleloader because for them the word rifle means centerfire cartridge. Most don't realize that the term rifle really means rifled bore until it has been explained to them.

I have seen videos on YouTube by Idaho Lewis and he is using custom rifle barrels, often 32" and fast rifling twist for conicals. He did use a 1/70 twist custom barrel dropped into a T/C Renegade for accuracy tests with PRB.

T/C and other manufacturers advertised that 1/48" rifle twist was for using both conical and ball projectiles. Which really means one size fits no one. It is true that the original Hawken rifles were usually 1/48" twist rifling, I wish that I could have asked Sam and Jake Hawken why they did so.

And you must have missed the 1-48 in 50 and 54 @ stupid long range he did and he like me call em sidelocks/ just sayin/Ed

[indian joe]

And you would be wrong (VERY) wrong ,get the right patch and right ball size and proper charge with proper powder you too could learn something most people know! A guy on youtube does it with a TC renegade al the time with video's to show you how , he"s forgotten more than most will ever know about sidelocks ! With the 1-48 twist he shoots amazing groups at amazing distance and explains it , he has a sticky on modern muzzle loader forums (sidelocks) , you might /will learn about the sidelock !/Ed

Ed you and your mate are the ones wrong (VERY) wrong - the fact you (and others) have figured how to make a compromise twist perform well does not alter the fact that its a compromise and a 1/48 is a poor choice for a larger roundball (50 cal up) compared to a 1/66 or 1/72 twist - maybe the Hawkens got away with it by making overdeep rifling and running thick tight patches - regardless - you are wrong and sixgun is right on this score

I will say the same to the blokes that swear a 1/72 twist in a military 58 is a "right" choice for shooting minies - baloney! you might be able to make it work but many cant and regardless, its a poor choice, 1/48 twist works way better for most shooters shooting minies.

[indian joe]

The term "sidelocks" seems like a term invented by inline users. Those are the guys who won't use the term rifle for any kind of muzzleloader because for them the word rifle means centerfire cartridge. Most don't realize that the term rifle really means rifled bore until it has been explained to them.

I have seen videos on YouTube by Idaho Lewis and he is using custom rifle barrels, often 32" and fast rifling twist for conicals. He did use a 1/70 twist custom barrel dropped into a T/C Renegade for accuracy tests with PRB.

T/C and other manufacturers advertised that 1/48" rifle twist was for using both conical and ball projectiles. Which really means one size fits no one. It is true that the original Hawken rifles were usually 1/48" twist rifling, I wish that I could have asked Sam and Jake Hawken why they did so.

Sixgun you are right on with all of this and I bet the Hawken boys did what they did because they didnt know any better at the time OR maybe all those old guys were skinflints on powder - 48 twist works fine until you start to stoke the fire some. You dont have to read far in the old literature to find talk of the ball "skipping the rifling" from too heavy a charge. Those old guns we are talking about hand forged wrought iron barrels - low pressure loads was probably a smart plan !

[Good Cheer]

What, why you mean aint none of yall know that the correct patch lube and wasp paper from the north side of a bodark tree are the only way to get accuracy with that compromise twist rifling?

[freakonaleash]

One of my most accurate flintlock rifles had a 48" .58 cal swamped barrel with a 1 in 48 twist shooting a .570 RB with a .018 patch and 60 gr of 3fff. Accurate out to 100 yards. Killed alot of deer with that gun. Never shot a conical. The reason I built that gun was all the originals I measured had around a 1 in 48 twist and wanted to figure out why that was. Now I know why. I have had other .58's with 66 and 72" twists that shot well but you really have to shoot alot of powder in them to get them to shoot.
I know of line shooters at Friendship that have won many championships shooting .58's with a 48" twist.

[Sixgun Symphony]

And you must have missed the 1-48 in 50 and 54 @ stupid long range he did and he like me call em sidelocks/ just sayin/Ed

Again, no one used the term "sidelocks" before Tony Knight produced his modern inline rifles. As for the video, if I missed it it was a one off and there is a reason all of Idaho Lewis's other videos have much faster twist rates for conical bullets and slower twist rates for PRB.

[Edward]

Again, no one used the term "sidelocks" before Tony Knight produced his modern inline rifles. As for the video, if I missed it it was a one off and there is a reason all of Idaho Lewis's other videos have much faster twist rates for conical bullets and slower twist rates for PRB.

You did miss it ,2 different cal /1-48 @ yardage , they are posted on modern muzzle loaders on the SIDE LOCK thread/sticky

[brewer12345]

My TC barrels are all 1 in 48. I found an accurate PRB load in one of them, but it took some doing. They all shoot conicals (especially maxi balls) very well. I just have some issues with the recoil from a curved metal buttstock when you are slinging 370 (or more) grains of lead with 100 grains of powder. Since I like just shooting my caplocks for fun, I picked up a green mountain 1 in 60-something barrel and a couple of other rifles with slower twists. They all shoot PRB well without much trying.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Interesting discussion. I've often wondered if the issue with the moderate twist TC rifles is not so much the twist rate itself, but the depth of the grooves. The factory barrel on my TC Renegade does nothing well, only ok, but the grooves are so shallow it's almost hard to see if any rifling is there. Looking at the barrels on my other rifles, fast or slow, there is considerable depth to the grooves, which means plenty of meat on the lands for them to really grab the projectile.

[mooman76]

Minies generally do better in a shallow droved barrel.