While leaving the serial number intact, is it legal to machine off/grind off, or otherwise remove all manufacturers other markings?
For clarification: I do NOT want to remove the serial number. I want to LEAVE the serial number intact. I want to remove everything else...
Thanks,
Robert
Without knowing which manufacturer produced it, the serial number doesn't really mean much.
The laws change here and there, but in our modern enlightened times, it would sort of look like you were making a de facto ghost gun.
In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.
OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
EVERYONE!
Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ation-overview
Firearms Verification
Firearms Verification Overview
Marking Requirements
Serial Number
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver
The serial number cannot duplicate the serial number appearing on any other firearm the importer previously imported
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch
Name of Manufacturer
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
Country of Origin
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the country of origin must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
Model Designation (if assigned)
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the model designation must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
Caliber or Guage
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the caliber or gauge must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
Name of Importer
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the importer’s name must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
City & State of the Importer
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
For firearms imported after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting or stamping (impressing) of the importer’s city and state must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch
Note: The importer must ensure that these marks of identification appear on each firearm. If the manufacturer did not mark them, the importer must place the required markings on the firearm within 15 days after their release from Customs and Border Protection custody. The Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives may authorize other means of firearms identification upon receipt of a letter application from the importer, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other means of identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of the regulations.
Identification of Firearms
27 CFR 478.92
Q: How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition?
Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
The model, if such designation has been made;
The caliber or gauge:
Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and
In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
More here
https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
M-Tecs: I've read every thing you posted. Many, many times over the last 6-8 years. I think I've read everything in the FFL docs from the batfe at this point.
It is specifically prohibited (illegal) to remove a serial number, and at the time of import, importers are required to have the manufacturer and importer marked, conspicuously, on the firearm, but I can't find anywhere where it's specifically illegal to REMOVE the manufacturer's or importers marks AFTER it is imported or manufactured.
That's what I'm specifically asking about...
Last edited by rmantoo; 09-02-2021 at 06:45 AM.
ask the ATF. That's how I found out that a pistol chambered for a shot gun shell is legal as long as it never had a shoulder stock. The H&R handy gun in 410 is legal to own even tho it was discontinued in 1934.
Contact ATF. Given the possible ramifications I don't understand why anyone would prefer the advice of a friend-of-a-friend, or a really smart guy, or an internet stranger with a handful of links (no offense M-Tecs, the stuff you posted was worth reading).
A thread on a message board isn't really research, it's more a transcript of an argument between virtual strangers. You might find an answer here. You will almost certainly find a bunch of conflicting responses.
Good luck, and if you do get the straight dope please let us know.
Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.
Ditto to getting it straight from the ATF and get it in writing, e-mail, snail mail,etc. A verbal answer on a phone call isn’t much more valuable than our opinions.
Originally Posted by rmantoo
You may have missed the point when you read the boilerplate posted by M-Tecs
A mandate/must for markings supersedes removal of same - AKA, an unlawful act.
BATF rules, considered law, specifically mandate for all firearms (domestic & imported):
Marking Requirements
* Serial Number Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver
* Name of Manufacturer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* Country of Origin Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* Name of Importer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* City & State of the Importer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
All the other boilerplate pertains to the specifications of the mandated markings.
There is no mandate for markings of extraneous information, like safety messages, metal descriptions ( "Bofors steel", etc, etc), and (in the US only) proofmarks.
.
Last edited by pietro; 09-02-2021 at 12:10 PM.
Now I lay me down to sleep
A gun beside me is what I keep
If I awake, and you're inside
The coroner's van is your next ride
The two links I posted are ATF.GOV links. How do you get more straight dope than ATF.GOV??????????? If that doesn't resolve the issue than contacting the ATF for clarification is the next step but unless they cite a specific regulation the next ATF agent may have a different prospective.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
ATF is gonna say that it’s prohibited. They aren’t paid to be creative or accommodating.
Relax, I'm not arguing with you. If the OP reads all of that and still doesn't get the specific answer he wants... He'll have to contact ATF.
Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.
This dosnt sound quite right as Ive seen imported riles sporterized, mausers and some others built into match rifle garands ( mine was blue sky) that were rebarreled and the importers stamp removed and not replaced.
As to the other markings Im not sure why you would want to remove them. removing caliber would be confusing later on. Maker other than military rifles that were made under contract by others ( 03,06 garands 1911s carbines come to mind) most rifles enough different to be visibly IDed by shape form or silhouette.
Some of those reciever stamping get pretty deep and removing that much metal may ave a weakening effect especially if the metal gets hot.
Many military surplus rifles were imported before Quote(Marking Requirements
* Serial Number Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver
* Name of Manufacturer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* Country of Origin Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* Name of Importer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide
* City & State of the Importer Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide)End Quote, was written into the regulations. Maybe an ATF agent would be knowledgeable enough to realize that information that was not supplied when the gun was purchased could not be engraved or stamped on to the receiver.
Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.
M-Tecs post is about "imported" firearms. It doesn't say anything about either domestic or after the firearm is imported. I know enough to leave a serial number but the other stuff I'm still not sure about. Call the ATF a few times and you'll probably get different answers each time from different people.
I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled
Fiat Justitia, Ruat Caelum
The ATF.GOV links are very clear for the requirements of both importers and domestic manufactures. What is lease clear is what can be removed. They are very clear about the serial number and no so much about the other.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 at Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.) 923(i) provides, in
part, that licensed manufacturers and licensed importers must identify each firearm
manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. The
NFA at 26 U.S.C. 5842 provides, in relevant part, that manufacturers, importers, and
anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm manufactured, imported, or made by a
serial number, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other
identification prescribed by regulation. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)
478.92(a)(1) and 479.102(a) further require the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
or maker of a firearm to legibly identify each firearm manufactured, imported, or made by
engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the
individual serial number on the frame or receiver, and certain additional information - the
model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer/importer’s name, and place of origin -
on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Both regulations require the serial number to be at a
minimum depth and print size, and the additional information to be at a minimum depth.
Further, the serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily
obliterated, altered, or removed, and not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensed
manufacturer, licensed importer, or maker on any other firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(k)
and 26 U.S.C. 5861(g), it is unlawful for any person to possess or receive any firearm
which has had the serial number removed, obliterated, or altered
some more here
https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...earms-98r-341p
https://fflconsultinggroup.com/licen...ture-firearms/
Federal gun manufacturing laws apply to persons engaged in the assembly of guns for profit and livelihood (ATF Rul.2010-10;Revenue Ruling 55-342) . Some FFLs mistakenly believe that gun assembly and disassembly, or simply building guns from distinctive parts is not considered “manufacturing” and therefore doesn’t require a Type 07 Federal Firearms License. FFLs may consider this type of activity to be gunsmithing. ATF licensees should be careful and secure the proper federal firearms license for the type of activity they engage in.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-04-2021 at 04:41 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
If the OP is doing it for profit the answer should be clear. If the OP is doing if for his own use it is much less clear. That is per federal law and depending on the state you could have additional requirements. CA comes to mind. Also a call to the ATF will not cut it legally without a reply in writing from the ATF.
https://www.nssf.org/articles/are-yo...-always-clear/
ARE YOU A GUNSMITH OR A MANUFACTURER? THE LINES ARE NOT ALWAYS CLEAR
By John Bocker, John Clark, Wally Nelson and Harry McCabe, NSSF Compliance Consultant Team Members
If you have an FFL license Type 01 or 02 and are wondering about where you draw the line between performing gunsmithing versus manufacturing, we have answers for you.
Before we delve into the explanation, keep in mind that there are many requirements for firearms manufacturers (FFL Type 07), such as marking standards, reporting requirements and payment of federal firearms excise taxes, that go beyond those for gunsmiths. If you fit the manufacturing criteria as explained below, you should certainly apply for and obtain the type of license for the business you are performing.
Know What You Are
The regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 define a “Manufacturer” as “any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition. The term shall include any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis.”
The regulations define “engaged in the business” as a “Manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.” A “gunsmith,” on the other hand, is any person licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, who is engaged in the business of repairing firearms or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms. A “gunsmith” may also repair, modify, embellish, refurbish or install parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers or otherwise) for or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer with only his or her dealer’s license, provided he or she meets the three specific conditions stated in both ATF Ruling 2010-10 and ATF Ruling 2015-1.
ATF Ruling 2015-1 further clarifies this issue by stating, “Any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a ‘weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,’ i.e., a ‘firearm,’ must be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA); identify (mark) any such firearm, and maintain the required manufacturer’s records.”
When You Need a Manufacturer’s License
Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person:
Is performing operations that create firearms or alter firearms; in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them
Is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade and
Is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms
Manufacturing activities include:
Forging receivers
Assembly of firearms
Making modifications or alterations to firearms that change performance and durability
Building or assembling a firearm from parts and entering it into commerce (to sell)
Modifying or altering a firearm by replacing parts with enhancements or modifications to alter the functionality or durability of the firearm from its original specifications (generally to improve the performance)
Forging or building completed receivers that are considered firearms by ATF standards (you are then required to follow all firearm marking and reporting requirements)
Disassembling firearms and rebuilding/reconstructing firearms for resale
Purchasing used or new guns and making modifications such as bluing or Cerakoting and then reselling the firearm
Regularly purchasing surplus military rifles and sporterizing them with modifications such as bending the bolts to accept a scope and drilling the receiver for a scope base, then offering them for sale to the public.
Threading barrels or attaching custom muzzle breaks to company-owned firearms and making them available for sale to the general public
Gunsmith Tools
It’s Different for Gunsmiths
The following are examples of gunsmithing when a firearm is received from a customer, repaired or serviced and returned to that same customer:
Engraving or camouflaging a firearm for a customer and hence later returning the firearm
Repairing or adjusting a trigger assembly for a customer, completing “drop-in” repairs
Drilling for and attaching a scope mount, attaching a scope
Replacing or repairing a stock or a grip
Replacing or upgrading sights
Receiving firearm frames from individual customers, attaching stocks and barrels and returning the firearms to the customers for the customers’ personal use (i.e., since the operations performed on the firearms were not for sale or distribution, the company should be licensed as a dealer-gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms)
Threading barrels or attaching custom muzzle breaks
This covers the basics of being a manufacturer versus a gunsmith. In Part II, we’ll examine some of more specific scenarios in which questions may come up, those gray areas you’ll want to consider. In all cases, the information and examples portrayed here are not all-inclusive and should not be interpreted as law or ATF guidelines. It is always our best recommendation to contact your local ATF Office or the ATF Firearms Technology Division with questions. Remember, your ATF partners are always willing to help guide you to do things right and safeguard your FFL. NSSF’s Compliance and Store Security Audit teams are also standing by to assist you with any compliance, security or operational issues.
About the Authors
John Bocker is an NSSF Security and Compliance Consultant Team Member and the Managing Director at JB Group, LLC, a business security, compliance and strategy consulting organization specializing in ATF FFL compliance and protecting FFLs against unexpected losses resulting from regulatory non-compliance, burglary, robbery and internal control failures. Have a question regarding this article? Contact John at (720) 514-0609.
John Clark is an NSSF Security and Compliance Consultant Team Member and the Principal and Founder of PCI Services, LLC, a business security consultancy firm with a mission to provide small to mid-size businesses with sustainable solutions that positively effect growth and protect interests. PCI Services provides solutions to the Firearms Industry that help both owners and investors ensure continued, sustainable success and the ability to achieve both operational and financial goals. Contact John at (813) 419-2129.
A member of NSSF’s Compliance Consultant Team, for the past 12 years, Wally Nelson retired in October 2005 from a distinguished 33-year career with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Nelson started with ATF in 1972 as an inspector, eventually serving 28 years in management positions. From 1998 until his retirement he was the Deputy Assistant Director of the Office of Enforcement Programs and Services. He was responsible for the ATF’s firearms and explosives programs and policies and oversaw firearms tracing, imports, licensing and NFA registrations and other operational activities. He was also the senior management leader in working with the FBI to develop the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and was a member of the Senior Executive Service. In 2004, the rank of Meritorious Executive was conferred on him by President George W. Bush for sustained superior management accomplishments.
Harry McCabe retired from ATF in 2012, after more than 36 years of service. He began his career as an inspector in Raleigh, North Carolina, conducting numerous firearms and explosives inspections in both that state and South Carolina until being transferred to bureau headquarters in 1983. During his career, McCabe was the area supervisor in Detroit and a branch chief at ATF Headquarters. In 1998, he became Director, Industry Operations, of the Nashville Field Division where for 12 years he directed all the firearms inspection activities in Tennessee and Alabama. During that time, McCabe oversaw more than 5,000 firearms qualification and compliance inspections and conducted approximately 50 firearms industry educational seminars. In 2010, he became Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations, where he was responsible for the entire firearms regulatory policy and inspection program nationwide. McCabe is a member of NSSF’s Compliance Consultant Team.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-04-2021 at 04:51 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Not disagreeing just noting it seemed specific to importers not domestic. Im pretty sure everyone here knows better than to remove serial numbers but it isnt clear if manu marks and others can be. IDK that answer. As for making them for your own, P80 kits for example, you dont need to unless you sell which i think is right but you can apply for a sn from the atf anytime
I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled
Fiat Justitia, Ruat Caelum
Pietro is right. For any gun made after the above date, there are marking requirements beyond a simple serial number. The INTENT of the law is to insure that whoever inspects that gun can immediately tell who made it, who imported it, and what model and caliber it is. If converted to a SBR, it would have an additional set of maker, city state added also. These should not be removed as it eliminates the INTENT of the marking requirements. But it is your gun. Do as you please. A call to the ATF will net you nothing concrete I expect.
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Write a "Letter" to the ATF and get a written Answer from them. That will be the legal answer for YOU. Not for anyone else.
Do not play games or you will get raided and your cats stomped on, ATF does not play well with others proven many times.
Believe an answer from an internet forum? I don't think I would and I am a former 07 FFL
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