Blueing alternative

[oldhenry]

Back in the '80s & '90s there was a gunsmith/locksmith in Jacksonville, FL that would hot blue guns that I prepped for a very reasonable price and his turnaround was good. Apparently he has retired.

I have 3 .22 rimfire rifle projects for great grandsons that I hope to complete before I leave this world. I want them to know about blued steel & walnut.

Does anyone out there know such a gunsmith in operation today?

Thanks,
Henry

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Do you get, or have access to, The Firearms News? There are usually 2 or 3 gunsmiths that advertise in their classified ads offering bluing services.

DG

[oldhenry]

Do you get, or have access to, The Firearms News? There are usually 2 or 3 gunsmiths that advertise in their classified ads offering bluing services.

DG

Thanks for the tip.

I don't get that publication, but I'll look into it.

Henry

[rking22]

Do some reading on rust blueing, gives an outstanding finish on vintage 22 rifle steel. A very simple and safe process, just labor intensive. Laurel mountain forge rust blue/Browning solution. There are threads on here with postings from those of us who have done it. Also, was the typical finish on 20 era Remington guns and still used on Superposed shotgun barrels due to the soft solder used assembling the barrels.

[badwolf]

2nd the rust blue idea. All you need is a piece of rain gutter for a blueing tank and a gas grill. If your doing all the prep your doing all the hard work already.

[oldhenry]

rking22 & badwolf,
Thanks for the response. I tried Brownell's Oxpho-Blue probably 25-30 years ago (man, time flies). I got mixed results: best results was on a bead blasted surface. The result on a polished surface was not even.

badwolf, I would think rain gutter would be galvanized (maybe I'm wrong). In any event: if galvanized, would the low heat make any galvanized treatment a non issue?

I have a TIG welder & I guess I could fab a tank: would there be an advantage to do so? Would more than one tank be an advantage?

Thanks for the help from you two.
Henry

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Henry, I used to be in the gunsmithing business (just a bit over 30 years) and 80% of my business was rebluing of firearms. I was a general gunsmith, but liked bluing and more and more came my way until I spent most of my time at it. There is a great deal to know about it, and there are several methods of getting it done. Since books have been written about it, I'll try to give you the condensed version:

Hot caustic bluing does require more than one tank. 5 tanks are great, 4 are good, you can get by with only 2 with a lot of work and imagination. The best system has a hot tank for cleaning in which there is a cleaning solution that completely degreases the metal. Next is the actual bluing tank that contains the hot salts. Third would be a cold water tank into which you can put the metal from the bluing tank to inspect it and decide whether it needs some extra work on a place where a spot is developing, etc., and put it back into the bluing tank, or if it is satisfactory and put it into the 4th tank which is a boil out hot water tank that boils the caustic salts residue out of the nooks and crannies of the various gun parts. Finally, a 5th tank of water displacing oil. As an alternative, some guys put the metal from the boil out tank onto a heavily newspapered counter top and hose it down with WD-40 or Corvis Oil. So, besides 4 or 5 tanks you need 3 burners to heat the tanks. Buying a ready-made set up will run well over $2,000 now days. You can weld up your own tanks, but you need to be very good at it as they expand when hot and will leak.

Next alternative is what is called Belgian Bluing. This just involves 2 tanks, one hot water and one cold water. You put the work into the hot water until it is as hot as the water (several minutes), then lift it out with a wire loop from muzzle to breech for a handle, and coat it with the Belgian Blue solution using a small paint brush. The solution is in a jar suspended from the edge of the hot tank into the hot water, and is also hot. Once coated, just take a few seconds, the work is put into the cold tank where it immediately flash rusts. You take the work out of the cold water and card off the rust with 4-0 steel wool, then back into the hot tank. This is repeated until you get the desired shade of blue, and 15 cycles is not unusual.

Then, there is rust bluing, which involves having a humidity cabinet, easy to build; just a box with a light bulb in it for heat. You prepare the metal, brush on the rust bluing solution, put the parts in the cabinet to rust. Card off the rust and repeat until happy with the results. This gives a very durable blue job.

You are correct, stay away from galvanized metal. It will plate onto the work.

Oxpho Blue does give varied results. I have see entire guns that were reblued with Oxpho that looked good, but as you have noted the results are often splotchy and different on different surfaces.
Another one that was popular for awhile was "Blue Magic", but you don't hear much about it anymore. Parkerizing is more durable than bluing, but much less attractive.

The reason(s) that there aren't too many gunsmiths in the rebluing business anymore is (1) stainless steel guns, (2) plastic guns, (3) painted guns, (4) bluing is very labor intensive, and requires a lot of practice at polishing to be good at it. It's a living, but not a way to get rich. There have been many coatings developed other than bluing, such as paints, ceramic based, plating, etc. that a skilled hobbiest can turn out a pretty good job at home. Airbrush jobs look better than rattle can jobs, and several coats of whatever you're using over several days is usually the way to go to prevent runs and drips.

To me, and of course I'm biased, nothing looks better than a well done bluing job. If you've never done it before you can easily be injured by the hot salts and should wear proper protective equipment to protect eyes and exposed skin. My forearms have hundreds of tiny pinhead scars from minute splashes of hot caustic salts. Keep a bottle of cheap, white vinegar handy to neutralize any splashes.

98% of a good bluing job is in the preparation. Any nicks, dents, scratches that are overlooked when polishing will be very visible after the gun is reblued. Also, bluing does not fill pitting, and they must be removed. That is one point in favor of the modern coatings, in that they will fill the pits and level out the surface....but it just isn't bluing!

My very best, well considered advice is to send the gun off to someone who is in the business.

DG

[farmbif]

I probably have a dozen old guns that I'd like to have reblued.
have toyed with the idea of getting this setup and learning how to's and how not to's
https://du-lite.com/shop/du-lite-com...ith-setup-201/
plus new polishing wheels for my buffers and polishers.
but for what it would cost and probably screwing up a couple in the learning process. I could just take them over to scotty and have them done properly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez3cD5gs0gk

[444ttd]

i used brownells oxpho blue last year. it came great on smaller pieces but on the barrel it was like poop thru a goose. i heated the gun pieces up by using a hair dryer, but the barrel proved too much for me.

for smaller piece, i would go with the oxpho blue. for larger pieces(action and the barrel), it will go to my gunsmith to hot blue it.

[hoodat]

DG, thanks for a great post, and a very thorough one. A lot of us have a much better understanding than we did before.

I'd like to ask if you need to worry about protecting the bore of a barrel from the blueing salts, or is it not "a thing". jd

[DougGuy]

Years ago I had great luck with a product called Kold Blak. Used to get it at gun shows, it was cheap and readily available. It is still on the market but not in the US afaik, and when you do find it you have to order a gallon at $35 before shipping. Probably $75 now who knows.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

DG, thanks for a great post, and a very thorough one. A lot of us have a much better understanding than we did before.

I'd like to ask if you need to worry about protecting the bore of a barrel from the blueing salts, or is it not "a thing". jd

Thank you for your thank you, jd. The answer: No, you can't plug a bore when hot bluing because the air and moisture inside will turn into steam and blow the plugs out. And, since the barrel is down below the level of the caustic salts there is a safety problem, as when the plugs blow out a salt spray will be headed your way. Further, most feel that bluing the bore will do no harm at all, and gives a protective coating that minutely improves accuracy-- but maybe doesn't last too long! If it's a badly pitted bore the hot solution will actually boil the rust out of the pits. If it's a nice bore it will still appear shiny after the bluing process. If it was a pitted bore, then at least you can get some oil into the bottom of the pits.

DG

[rking22]

Only one “tank” needed for rust blueing, and a piece of PVC pipe with one cap is what I use. You can just suspend the part over a steam source too, never did that myself.A bottle of Laurel Mountain Forge solution will do several guns. It’s nice to have a carding wheel for complex surfaces but just steel wool is fine for something like a Win 67 barrel. Process: remove any pitting you don’t want to show and finish to ,eh, 340. Anything more isn’t needed and may make things more difficult. Clean the metal to remove all oil, use gloves skin oil is OIL. Hang the part and coat with solution, per instructions included with the product. Place it in a high humidity environment for couple hours or overnight, outside porch in Tn this time of year works fine. A humidity box is nice, especially in winter! Let it rust to a fine brown, don’t let it pit or get water droplets on it. Remove and submerge into boiling hot water, no minerals or you might get splotches.( if you don’t boil it will remain brown, not the blue black we seek) When it turns black and fuzzy, pull it out and card it off with 0000 steel wool. Hang and re coat while still warm. Repeat as required. I have found that after about 5 cycles it dosent want to rust anymore, done. Wash it off in hot water, generously coat with oil, all done. I don’t do it for pay, too time consuming and I just like doing it when I’m in the mood. I am very pleased with the guns I’ve done, a couple Win M67, couple rough M36 Smiths, IJ Hammerforged 20 ga SxS, and Belgian SA22 along with a bunch of 10-22 barrels. I hate paint on guns, so I learned to do this process. The finish is extremely tough and rust resistant. Oh, no concern about the bore, only rusts where you put the solution.

[badwolf]

My gutter is aluminium not galvanized. Use distilled water for boiling. Carding wheel is nice. Ive used laurel mt and plinkinron gun company American rust blueing solution with great results.

[oldhenry]

Thanks to all for the many responses.

DG,
I echo the remarks by "hoodat". You gave an excellent overview!
Your last sentence confirms that the decision I made years ago to send the prepped parts to the gunsmith in Jacksonville was the right decision.

farmbif,
Thanks for that video on Scotty. That is the answer to my problem.

444ttd,
Thanks for the confirmation.

rking22,
I may try your method on an Ithaca 49 barrel (most other parts will need to be ceracoated (spelling?) or painted anyway being of zinc (I think).

badwolf,
We have a dehumidifier that produces distilled water. I'll use it on the Ithaca 49 bbl .

Henry

[Hickok]

Years ago I had great luck with a product called Kold Blak. Used to get it at gun shows, it was cheap and readily available. It is still on the market but not in the US afaik, and when you do find it you have to order a gallon at $35 before shipping. Probably $75 now who knows.

Doug, I had one container of Kold Black years ago. That stuff really worked. Never could find any more of it. Glad some one else remembers it.

[2152hq]

Rust Bluing , either Express Rust (Quick Rust Blue) or Cold Rust (Slow Rust Blue) doesn't take a lot of fancy equipment. It does take attention to detail and technique.

Either can give excellent results, but both can give you problems that can result in starting over if you are not careful in the prep and handling during the process.

Express Blue is a start to finish process.
Cold Rust (Slow Rust) is just that,,it takes a number of days usually as the rust coatings are formed naturally. Though even these can be speeded up by the use of 'damp cabinets' to hike the temp and humidity. I simply place the parts on hooks in a bathroom with a shower and steam up the room and leave the door closed. Same idea.

Each process uses their own rusting solns generally. What works for Express Rust is not a soln you can usually get results with using it as a Cold Rust soln.
You can mix your own of either ,,do a bit of research and fine all the old formulas. Some are very poisonous. Many have Mercury compounds in them especially the Express Blue. That made them work so well!
Slow Rust formula can be anything as simple as dilute muriatic acid or a soln of SalAmmoniac (solder flux).

Easiest is to buy a rusting soln and go on from there to get started.
Several well known brands on the market.
I use Laurel Mtn Bbl brown for Cold Rust Blue and Mark Lee's Express Bbl Blue for that.
These for the last 40 yrs or so.
I tried about every formula and commercial soln out there before these.

I do small parts Express Blue right on the stove top in a simple aluminum bread pan. Quick and handy. The carding wheel is mounted in the Mill in the shop so back and forth for exercise.
Bbl's and mag tubes ect I generally slow rust. I use a water tank/boiling for that. Always have. Some are switching over to steaming in a tube instead of using a tank. Seams to work, but too late for me to change.
I collect A/C condensate during the summer to use as the 'distilled water. Works fine,,cheap too!

Been rust bluing, damascus finishing (and engraving) for 50+ yrs.
Retired now,,do my own projects for fun.
Here's a few pics.


Express Rust Blued CZ45


Slow Rust Blued Winchester 63 upgrade
Yes you can get shiny 'rust blue'.


Express Rust Blued Pre-27 S&W 357.
This one done on the stove top in a bread pan



Slow rust blued Bbls
Lefever NitroSpcl upgrade



Marlin 1893 SCR 30-30 Slow Rust Blued Bbl, mag tube and parts.


Meriden Mod 1915 Deluxe .22 pump restored and upgraded.
Slow rust blued finish

[BigAlofPa.]

This Winchester 60. I sanded down to the bare steel to remove pits. Cold blued it with Burchwood Casey system.

[oldhenry]

2152hq,
Beautiful work! You sir are a true craftsman.

[rking22]

2152hq, those are beautiful! Especially the pump 22, man I’m a sucker for pretty wood.