Old Ideal 4C Mould and Why I detest Bubba

[Pressman]

This is JonP's mould, clearly ruined by some low life, knuckle dragging pond scum. Using logical reasoning I cannot understand why anyone would want and then try to drill out a mould. In this application a mould with historical application.

I am posting this for the education and enlightenment of the membership. Too often I see posts from someone who thinks if he has a hand drill, he can make a mould. NO, YOU CAN'T!

If you want something different, contact a custom mould maker and get exactly what you want. And put that drill away.

This mould, it still has some significance even with the damage as the original numbers were not blocked out.

But still, it makes my righteous indignation boil over.

[Mal Paso]

Speechless

[zarrinvz24]

Pressman, as the foremost expert on vintage reloading equipment, what are your thoughts on single cavity ideal molds and the conversion service Erik at hollowpoint molds? Here is why I ask: I have several that I was going to send in, however this post and some others in recent days are making me wonder if I am perhaps defacing history?

[jonp]

Oy..thats the odd one i couldnt figure. Any idea what that attempt was?

[OS OK]

Pressman, as the foremost expert on vintage reloading equipment, what are your thoughts on single cavity ideal molds and the conversion service Erik at hollowpoint molds? Here is why I ask: I have several that I was going to send in, however this post and some others in recent days are making me wonder if I am perhaps defacing history?

I agree with Pressman about all the Bubba's of the world however the historical value does not rate high on my list. These moulds are tools and if they are not useful and productive as such then all we have is an historical paperweight.

I found this combo-mould here a few years back. I thought it unique however I have multi cavity moulds of both profiles. I sent it to Erik with instructions & an explanation and it came back more useful than it originally was...now it will cast 6 profiles instead of two.



3 sided, 4 sided & 5 sided Hollow Points.
You might still say this mould has been Bubba'd, but it was Bubba'd by the best in the business...Erik @ Hollow Point Moulds.

[zarrinvz24]

That looks nice!! Glad to see that it’s not just me that view these this way. They are tools to be used. Made for a purpose. I’ll never forget the horror in a gentlemen’s eyes when he watched me take my 1940 Win M70 into the field for a pig hunt. He told me it belonged in a museum, not in the salty badlands of SoCal. I don’t abuse it, but to leave it sitting in the safe seems like far worse a sin than letting it fulfill its purpose.

With all that being said, the attempt at modification above in Pressman’s post seems like a senseless moment.

[Bazoo]

Is the OP mould significant for whom owned it? A mould that unique, if mentioned by keith in his writings for example, would be very valuable unmolested.

[Mk42gunner]

Finally, we have found something that makes the plethora of suppository molds on Ebay look good.

[Gewehr-Guy]

It looks like they even drilled it at an angle. Maybe a mould maker could re-cut the cavity to something classic like the .457124, but I don't think there is enough room for a larger cavity. That 311410 is an interesting little bullet.

[Bent Ramrod]

Too bad; it was the most intriguing cavity number, too. I recall a site exists somewhere that has photos of mangled and Bubba-ized loading equipment; a pic of that mould would be a worthy addition.

In the time period that mould was manufactured not a lot of people cast bullets. Once it passed from the hands of its original owner, there would be a thin market and a thinner chance of finding anybody with the same casting needs. There was some guy who collected powder flasks back then, but nobody collected production bullet moulds. It wouldn’t have had any particular value. What gets through that valueless period unscathed is not just “Vintage,” it is “Rare.”

[Pressman]

Dave, thanks for weighing in on this. This is an interesting conversation as OS OK describes as tools and those of us on the collector end see as desecration. By the way the mould that OS OK posted is a very nice example of a professional upgrade, I would not call it desecration. An extreme, but good example would be someone taking a Hollywood press and cutting or welding to it for an "improvement".

As Dave explained the issue is that time period between new and when a tool begins to have collector value. It's a difficult point to determine. The mould pictured is 65 + years old and from a time when moulds with personal choices could be purchased. However, determining age and production numbers of various moulds is difficult fraught with a lot of guess work. Lyman is notorious for not keeping anything that resembles a company record. What is known that the four cavity moulds were the smallest sellers and four cavities with four individual boolits is even more scarce. It should be noted that scarce and rare do not mean priceless and extremally valuable. Demand determines value.

Jon's mould is a great example of a different time, before MBA's ran companies and providing unique, one off items was good customer service.

Ken

[Pressman]

Pressman, as the foremost expert on vintage reloading equipment, what are your thoughts on single cavity ideal molds and the conversion service Erik at Hollow point molds? Here is why I ask: I have several that I was going to send in, however this post and some others in recent days are making me wonder if I am perhaps defacing history?

The single cavity moulds are the most common, but they are getting along in age. Unless it is a rare cavity style, I would see no issue with it as it is a professional upgrade.

The older fixed handle moulds I would not modify, ever.

Ken

[EMC45]

This is JonP's mould, clearly ruined by some low life, knuckle dragging pond scum. Using logical reasoning I cannot understand why anyone would want and then try to drill out a mould. In this application a mould with historical application.

I am posting this for the education and enlightenment of the membership. Too often I see posts from someone who thinks if he has a hand drill, he can make a mould. NO, YOU CAN'T!

If you want something different, contact a custom mould maker and get exactly what you want. And put that drill away.

This mould, it still has some significance even with the damage as the original numbers were not blocked out.

But still, it makes my righteous indignation boil over.

Human feces

[TNsailorman]

Well, I se this forum is diving into the deep end of human nature. Calling people names does no good for anyone, the one calling names or the person on the receiving end. I thought there was an rule on Cast Boolits about not calling people name and yet here we have a moderator calling names. I am a life long history buff on nearly all things that has a link to the past. That mold definitely belongs to history in my opinion and I also agree that it should have never been modified from it original state. I have the same feeling about old cars, guns and other tools and their place in history. I don't watch Barrett Jackson anymore because of the vast number of old original cars that have been chopped up under the guise of "street rods" when the market is full of the same body style in modern plastic that would serve as well or better. I feel the same about old guns being modified to take modern calibers, old press that are modified, etc. But calling names is not going to bring one of those items back neither is it going to change the minds of people who buy to/or modify. After all, it is their equipment and money and this is still a Free Country(right now anyway). When we start name calling and making rules against the things we don't like, this country is toast. This is not a criticism of the moderator who wrote this piece, rather it is a plea to keep things civil and the name calling out of Cast Boolits. I do agree with a lot of what he said about not screwing up great old molds like the previous owner did. may .02 anyway, james

[JimB..]

Wonder if you could have it cut as a clean cylinder, install a piece of steel or bronze (probably need to hold it with screws from the back) then cut a new profile. Clearly not worth the effort, but could be interesting. What’s to lose?

[georgerkahn]

Pressman (Ken): For an answer vis "I cannot understand why anyone would want and then try to drill out a mould", I am, indeed a guilty person of so doing! In pursuit of small-mouth bass in the St. Lawrence River I desired sinkers in front of my lure to take said lure to river bottom without hanging up. The ideal tool is what is referred to as a "bottom walker" sinker -- a bullet-shaped piece of lead with a length of piano wire therein -- I added a photo here. The "factory" ones run at about four dollars EACH!, and I reckoned I could make them for pennies... I made an inquiry to the good folks on this site, and a wonderful gent in Iowa (SWANEEDB) sent me a defective Lee mould he had. Shortly thereafter it was clamped in a drill press vise and YES -- I first drilled a wire-sized hole all the way through followed with one of the mould's major diameter. Since, I have made and used several dozen of my home-made bottom walkers... and I have been so happy I -- to me, "recycling" the mould for this purpose was a great idea
geo.

[jonp]

That looks nice!! Glad to see that it’s not just me that view these this way. They are tools to be used. Made for a purpose. I’ll never forget the horror in a gentlemen’s eyes when he watched me take my 1940 Win M70 into the field for a pig hunt. He told me it belonged in a museum, not in the salty badlands of SoCal. I don’t abuse it, but to leave it sitting in the safe seems like far worse a sin than letting it fulfill its purpose.

With all that being said, the attempt at modification above in Pressman’s post seems like a senseless moment.

I saw someones eyes get big during a whitetail hunt in the swamps when he noticed i had a 40's vintage Win 70 300H&H

[jonp]

The comments here are interesting. Does anyone here have an idea as to what that budding engineer had in mind with that cavity? I cant find anything like it.

Pressman, after venting his well deserved frustration with the Bubbas of the world offered a fair to me price and kept it as i have no interest in any of the cavities.

How he will be able to look at that, not scowl then curse is a mystery but maybe that is its purpose

[OS OK]

Pressman (Ken): For an answer vis "I cannot understand why anyone would want and then try to drill out a mould", I am, indeed a guilty person of so doing! In pursuit of small-mouth bass in the St. Lawrence River I desired sinkers in front of my lure to take said lure to river bottom without hanging up. The ideal tool is what is referred to as a "bottom walker" sinker -- a bullet-shaped piece of lead with a length of piano wire therein -- I added a photo here. The "factory" ones run at about four dollars EACH!, and I reckoned I could make them for pennies... I made an inquiry to the good folks on this site, and a wonderful gent in Iowa (SWANEEDB) sent me a defective Lee mould he had. Shortly thereafter it was clamped in a drill press vise and YES -- I first drilled a wire-sized hole all the way through followed with one of the mould's major diameter. Since, I have made and used several dozen of my home-made bottom walkers... and I have been so happy I -- to me, "recycling" the mould for this purpose was a great idea
geo.

Great idea for re-purposing. Harry Tobin sent me a repurposed Lee 2 cavity a couple years back.
He saw that I always filed a flat on the side of my casts to do a Lee BHN test for hardness. I was constantly trying to keep the files clean so they'd cut clean.
Here's the modified Lee 2 cavity...



The mould had a few router marks, tooling marks but I cleaned it up with a points file. Now it's a snap to do my BHN testing.



I put a Red Marks a Lot on the slug before dimpling and it makes the dimple very easy to define the edges where your measuring across.



This could be done to save that cavity from being a total loss?

[Tim357]

I have an old Ideal 357446 that I sent to Erik to have HP'd. It now makes wonderful cup point and hollow point boolits. I Wouldn't use it otherwise