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Thread: 25-35: Primers backing out

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    25-35: Primers backing out

    I assembled 5 cartridges for a good friend who has a Model 94 made, according to the serial number, in 1946.

    The load used new brass, 21.5 Gr Varget, WW LRP, and 117-gr cast that were provided by a kind member of the forum. I sent these off to New Mexico and he tested them this past weekend.

    He reported nothing unusual *except* all the primers backed out a ways. Now I had hand-primed the cases, none of the pockets were loose, and all were seated just a hair below the case head. In other words, perfectly normal.

    Any suggestions about the probable cause are appreciated. Note that I have no way of making a chamber cast since we're wildly separated.

    He provided these images:

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    Thank you, Richard
    Isn't a 9mm just a .45 set on stun? -- Amy W.

    "When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred."
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I looks to me like the headspace is a bit off. GF

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    The headspace. The cases were sized too much resulting in the primers backing out upon firing.
    Rick

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    25-35 headspaces off the rim like a 30-30.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Did you full length size or neck size the brass?
    Was it HIS brass that you reloaded?
    My suggestion would be to get those cases back, neck size only - load as usual and record results.

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    What velocity did he get?
    I’d call around and see if he can find someone to check headspace just because.
    Some folks adjust their sizing die to “fill the chamber” even though the cartridge headspaces on the rim. As long as it goes fully into battery I can’t imagine that the practice is bad. Maybe measure how far the primer backed out, move your sizing die up by that amount and go from their.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy Driver man's Avatar
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    I think your primers are backing out due to low pressure. I would up the powder charge by 1 grain
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    +1 on the neck size only, and would suggest trying 5744 or 2400 instead of Varget with the cast loads.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Agreed with not enough recoil. All primers back out, the recoil impulse resets them. If the load is too light not enough recoil impulse to reset the primer.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    I think Harold McFarland, in his book on gunsmithing, mentioned that a lot of Winchester 94s had rather sloppy headspace, either from wear on the locking surfaces or slight compression of the breech bolt from stiff loads.

    This was in the context of rebarreling one of those clunky old octagon barreled .32-40s or .38-55s to the more up-to-date .30-30 with a new, threaded and chambered factory or aftermarket barrel, a common practice back then that would be frowned on by collectors and factory liability lawyers now.

    But at the time, he said that the slight excess headspace that might result wouldn’t matter much, as long as the loads were at pressures similar to factory loadings. I think it was also him who said that the tapered case design of the smokeless 94 cartridges would start sticking in the chambers well before the loads got hot enough to be disastrous; a sort of built-in “safety warning.”

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Have had that issue with light loads in my 03A3 on which the headspace is correct. As stated the primer is pushed out when fired and with heavier loads the case is pushed back against the bolt face, re-seating the primer. Have also seen references to headspace issue on the Win 94, if he can get it checked have him do so. This can happen also with a rough or dirty chamber, the case seizes to the chamber wall and does not move back. Neck sizing, or if needed just FL size enough to reliably chamber, will also help.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Mild loads, primers backed out due to headspace. You can drill primer pockets to prevent it, just ignore it, or size brass FULLY FORMED to the chamber so it headspaces on the shoulder.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    I worked on one doing the same thing. The bolt face had set back where the primer sets. Had to bore out and bush the bolt face. Also 25-35

  14. #14
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by beshears View Post
    I worked on one doing the same thing. The bolt face had set back where the primer sets. Had to bore out and bush the bolt face. Also 25-35
    I have a 25-20 savage 23B that has the same problem. Perfect headspace - But boldface where the primer rests is set back or depressed. Needs to be bushed.
    Being human is not for sissies.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    I have seen this many times. The problem is too much headspace. Wisner's has oversize locking lugs listed but they are out of stock. Had one come in with .025" headspace years ago and the owner was still shooting it. It's not caused by pushing the shoulder back. headspace is on the rim, not the shoulder. Most of the 94s that I have seen have too much headspace. Sense the pressure of the 30-30 and others that are based on that cartridge don't have high enough pressure to stretch the brass there is not a problem except the primer backing out. If the brass was stretching the primer would be flush with the base. On cartridges that headspace on the shoulder and operate at higher pressure headspace can be a problem.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Does the bolt face set back, or does the frame stretch? Or do the locking lug mortices take a set?
    Cognitive Dissident

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Does the bolt face set back, or does the frame stretch? Or do the locking lug mortices take a set?
    From what I have seen, the bolt face looks good, frame looks good and locking lug looks good. They left the factor loose?

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Hard to believe that Winchester would do that, but without the original drawings and a CMM or a battery of gages we can't ever know.
    Cognitive Dissident

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Many thanks to all for the information and recommendations. Headspace was my first thought; I will suggest he gets his rifle checked, especially the bolt face. It's been decades since I lived in Albuquerque, so I don't know if there's a good 'smith in town.

    It turns out I have some 2400, and will load another small batch for my friend to try.

    Cheers,
    Richard
    Isn't a 9mm just a .45 set on stun? -- Amy W.

    "When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred."
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  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Wondering now. . . . Given the relatively crude process control in the plant that made the gun, did Winchester use "selective-fit" to set headspacing? Like Enfields?

    Naw, it would be common knowledge by now. Or would it?
    Cognitive Dissident

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check