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Thread: Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

    avogunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    I tend to load the .38 Special just as a .38 Special, not even to +P levels. Mainly because I have a few .38 Speial only revolvers and don't want to over stress them. I mainly use either 231 or Bullseye for nice economical target/ plinking loads.

    For .357 Magnum, most of my loads have been with 2400, although H110/296 works fine in some applications. I am finally getting to the point that I want to settle on one standardized load for my medium bore revolvers.

    I figure if I need more power than a normal for the caliber load, it is time to move to a more powerful gun.

    Robert
    This is exactly my way of thinking too. My 38's are inherited pre-war S&W M&P's and I love shooting them, but they only get cast target loads. For my .357's I've settled on 2400 (I save my dwindling suppy of H110 for the M1 Carbine - where it really shines).
    Semper Fi

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM52 View Post
    Tim...if you are getting over 1100 fps with a 3" that is impressive...

    What guns and what was the velocity difference....
    Ruger SP101 3" .357 chambered, and S&W 686 4" .357 Chambered. Oddly, the difference between the two was less than 30 fps IIRC. Away from my notes now, but I'll confirm when I get to the house. I've not fired any in .38 Spl chambered arms yet. Also, just because I could, years ago I loaded some 12.5 A2400 .38 Spl loads from Skeeter Skelton. Used Ideal 357446 crimped in center lube groove. Same arms, velocity was near 1300 fps with very low deviation.

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Were I to load 38-44 I would start with AA5. A smidge slower than Unique and meters like water. It will give a good clean burn with full charge loads. AA5 has always produced good accuracy for me.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  4. #44
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    the problems we face now is actually finding powder. sure hodgdon is selling a very limited selection now, but if the only thing they have doesnt do well at less then full elmer or skelton level loads,,, your kind of screwed. And if you gun doesnt like that particular powder, your screwed again.

    Its like me and my loading attempts to learn the 38 and 357. Most of my results have been in the 38/44 to bottom 357 magnum land. Have tried powders that are considered the universal choice, and gotten horrid results.

    like the bullseye loads for 148 hbwc. cant get less then 6 inch groups double handled slow fire unless i seat them upside down with about 1/8" sticking ouf of the case.... at 5 YARDS.

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=BunkTheory;5316396...

    like the bullseye loads for 148 hbwc. cant get less then 6 inch groups double handled slow fire unless i seat them upside down with about 1/8" sticking ouf of the case.... at 5 YARDS.[/QUOTE]

    What manufacturer's bullets are you using, how much Bullseye and what brass and dies are you using? Have you shot your loads off bags? Any HBWC loaded correctly should shoot 2-inch, 12-shot groups off sandbags at 25 yards.
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  6. #46
    Boolit Master

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    Got the science done on the 4" GP-100 yesterday. Unique turns out to be a solid winner:

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    The 6.1 grain load is where I'm going to settle and it is probably reasonable to regard as max charge considering this was with mixed brass of unknown origin. The 6.7 an 7.0 charges gave a little gas blow-by around the primers. Probably just dandy in better controlled cases or a full-length .357 hull, but 6.1 got my 175 grain slug to the 1000 fps I was looking for, so I feel little need to explore that more deeply.

    It's also a very clean combination with the CCI WSP and White Label 45/45/10 lube. A single tug of a fairly loose-fitting Boresnake left the barrel and chambers gleaming like factory new.

    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
    Thanx the oldest lyman book I have is the #45. It came out in the early 70s. It is a contemporary of the Speer #8 and has similar loads except for the 4756 loads for .38spl..........
    It came out in 1970 . I bought the first one I saw at Clark Hardware in Nashville with birthday money on the 20th of November 1970 . Still using it . It's one of the books I never intend being without . The 100 grain jacketed accuracy load from that edition has been the top performer in every .243 rifle that I have ever tried it in .
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim357 View Post
    Ruger SP101 3" .357 chambered, and S&W 686 4" .357 Chambered. Oddly, the difference between the two was less than 30 fps IIRC. Away from my notes now, but I'll confirm when I get to the house. I've not fired any in .38 Spl chambered arms yet. Also, just because I could, years ago I loaded some 12.5 A2400 .38 Spl loads from Skeeter Skelton. Used Ideal 357446 crimped in center lube groove. Same arms, velocity was near 1300 fps with very low deviation.
    OK, I finally was able to find my notes. The difference between the two revolvers, from 11.0 to 12.0 was never more than 33FPS. 12.0 A2400 was 1163 avg in 3", and 1196 avg in 4" bbl.

    Also, I was a mite wrong on the velocity of the 12.5 load. In the 3" bbl it was 1158 avg, with ES of 16 and SD of 5.
    The 4" bbl recorded 1219 avg, with ES of 11, and SD of 4.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    ...not enough velocity difference to make the .5 grains worth it... May have to try that next time I reload the .38-44...

    Is there much unburned powder?

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Don't have recent data, but many years ago Herco showed promise. These days am using AutoComp
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  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy badguybuster's Avatar
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    Ive been working on Longshot in 38 but havent tried anything over 125 yet

  12. #52
    Boolit Mold
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    I haven't posted since the discussion on heavy .32ACP loads
    (thanks Outpost75) but here's piece of one I posted in the S&W
    forum a couple days ago about the 6 grains of Herco I use with
    a 158gr LSWC :

    "Went out Friday between storms to chrony my buds 5gr Red Dot Jeff Cooper load,
    but that's another story.

    I took some of my Herco loads to see what they actually do. Been shooting them
    about 10 years now and finally got to see 'em in action. The bullets I used
    were the last of the ones I tumble lubed prior to going with powder coating.

    Here's the results of the 5 shot strings:

    2" 966fps SD 15.41
    3" 1026fps SD 16.88
    4" 1077fps SD 15.44

    Something I also noted was the sooting was way down. I'm pretty sure it
    was because I used a lot heavier crimp than I usually do because of
    wanting to use the 2" revolver.

    I found this load years ago and now can't find the book I got it out of.
    The nearest I can now find is from Sierra's 1978 2nd Edition on page 311.
    That one is for the 158gr JSP. It's the one in the middle of the scan and the
    second slowest load out of the 6" Colt Trooper they used with that jacketed bullet
    rated at 800fps."

    For those who use Quickload I guess this is in .357 mag territory and Mr. Gibson's
    tests substantiate that. But as a jacketed load the velocity is is down under 850fps.

    Herco is a good powder.



    Sierra scan (7).pdf

  13. #53
    Boolit Master



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    I'm glad you posted over here as I posted in your thread on the S&W forum. Good data. I also got easy extract and round primers with my Herco loads.

    How did the Jeff Cooper Red dot loads go? Thanx.........
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
    gary@2texastrucks.com
    Gary D. Peek

  14. #54
    Boolit Mold
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    I'll dig up the data and post it.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master



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    Is anyone using Longshot for this application?

    Larry Gibson ran some tests for me with Rim Rock 158gr swcbb on VVN340 oal 1.500 Rem 1 1/2 primer. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the results as I think they are useful as .38-44 loads for HDs and .357s. From a 7.9" solid contender barrel; 6gr gave 1109fps and 21,900psi, 6.3gr gave 1159fps and 23,200psi, and 6.5 was 1191 and 26,000psi.

    There are a lot of good .38-44 loads in this thread.
    Last edited by ddixie884; 12-29-2021 at 05:08 AM.
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
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    Gary D. Peek

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Too much good information here to bother starting another thread....

    Took a Heavy Duty and a 649-2 to the range the other day. Don't know why but this batch of 6.0 grains of Unique with the 357156 bullets were going a little slower than my last batch...

    Just found some 2400 and do have Longshot that I'm going to try... AAC7 or 9 may get a try also...

    Interesting in looking at a 1952 GUN DIGEST under the Colt firearms section, it lists the .38-44 rounds as acceptable for use in the D frame Detective Special and Police Positive Special. Just looked at the 1968 SHOOTER'S BIBLE and under the Colt D frame section the steel frame Detective Special is still listed as being able to use "High Speed" ammo but the aluminum frame Agent and Cobra "mid-range and regular service loads" only....

    There are also four factory loads listed in the 1952 catalog:
    Winchester 158 Lead and Metal Piercing at 1175 from a 5"
    Remington 158 Lead at 1115 and Hi-Way Master Metal Piercing 110 grain at 1330...out of a 5"

    In the 1968 only two loadings:
    Winchester: 150 grain Metal piercing @ 1080/6"
    Remington: 158 grain Lead @ 1080/6"

    Bob
    Last edited by RJM52; 06-12-2022 at 05:16 AM.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy Hi-Speed's Avatar
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    I duplicate 1950s/1960s 38 Special “Hi-Speed” and “Super X” factory loads (these are not the hotter 1930s vintage 38-44 loads as the “Rem/UMC 38-44s”… these hot loads were discontinued shortly after WW2). Remington “Hi-Speed” 38 Specials were listed in Remington catalogs at 1,090 fps in 6 inch factory test barrels…these loads eventually became the 38 Special +P 158 gr lead loading starting in the early/mid 1970s (Remington catalog at the time listed its +P designated loads at 915 fps from 4 inch vented barrels and still 1,090 fps in their 6 inch solid test barrels).


    You can obtained these ballistics using Power Pistol with Speer 38 Spl +P 158 gr lead reloading data.
    Last edited by Hi-Speed; 07-30-2022 at 11:43 AM.

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Did the chrono work yesterday with the loads in .357 brass through a 5" gun. Looks like somewhere around 1000 fps is where this project wants to go, and 10.3 - 10.5 grains of 2400 will accomplish that. . .in a .357 case.

    I guess the question now is regarding the best way to get there in a .38 case. 2400 certainly worked for Elmer and less of it should be needed in the smaller case. Also thinking that something faster (Unique) will give the same speeds with less powder mass added to the recoil equation. Anyway, I have a more solidly defined goal now - if that helps you to help me.
    In regards to 2400 in .38 cases, I chronographed some years ago for a buddy his 2400 loads. 10 gr 2400, Lee 158 RNFP showed 912 fps in a .357 S&W 686

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    CWlongshot made some of the 140 grain Lyman Spire Point bullets probably originally made to defeat body armor... As I have a few pounds of SR4756 left I'm just going to expend it where it does the most good...HiSpeed .38 Special rounds...

    Ran them in two guns...a 1968 Colt Diamondback 2.5" and a S&W Heavy Duty 4"

    8.0 grains/1154/1230
    8.5 grains/1153/1255
    9.0 grains/1192/1307
    9.5 grains/1247/1337

    With the 8.0 and 8.5 grain loads the cases dropped out of the chambers when inverted. Round primers, zero pressure signs.

    With 9.0 grains it was odd...smooth effortless ejection. Round primers on the DB and slight primer firing pin cratering on the HD...and here where it gets real odd...at 9.5 round primers on both guns and zero cratering...just normal firing pin marks...

    Found an article the other day that listed the 110 grain Highway Patrol loads...1350 fps from a 5" barrel...

    Bob
    Last edited by RJM52; 08-13-2022 at 06:58 AM.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM52 View Post
    CWlongshot made some of the 140 grain Lyman Spire Point bullets probably originally made to defeat body armor... As I have a few pounds of SR476 left I'm just going to expend it where it does the most good...HiSpeed .38 Special rounds...

    Ran them in two guns...a 1968 Colt Diamondback 2.5" and a S&W Heavy Duty 4"

    8.0 grains/1154/1230
    8.5 grains/1153/1255
    9.0 grains/1192/1307
    9.5 grains/1247/1337

    With the 8.0 and 8.5 grain loads the cases dropped out of the chambers when inverted. Round primers, zero pressure signs.

    With 9.0 grains it was odd...smooth effortless ejection. Round primers on the DB and slight primer firing pin cratering on the HD...and here where it gets real odd...at 9.5 round primers on both guns and zero cratering...just normal firing pin marks...

    Found an article the other day that listed the 110 grain Highway Patrol loads...1350 fps from a 5" barrel...

    Bob
    WOW.............. That is pretty hot for a Diamondback but the PP was approved for the 38-44 factory load so.........
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
    gary@2texastrucks.com
    Gary D. Peek

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check