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Thread: Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice?

    So I've decided to start playing with my 175 grain NOE/Ranch Dog tumble lubers in earnest.

    I started a load workup in my 4" GP-100 and made it up to about 12 grains of 2400 in a .357 case in front of a CCI SPM cap. Seems to leave a lot of unburned powder and the recoil - while manageable - is creeping out of the "rapid fire combat" category, and into the "slow fire hunting" zone. Not 100% sure of where I want to be yet - only that I don't want to be in the rip-snort, max load area, but I want to be well off the reservation of standard .38 loads as well.

    Another concern is that my S&W's will chamber this bullet seated to the crimp groove in a .357 case, but the ogive runs into the chamber throats on my Rugers and doesn't QUIIIIIITE reliably allow "plunk" chambering without a slight shove.

    Sooooooo. . .wondering if smaller charges of 2400 will burn cleaner in the shorter .38 case, or if you have a better "hot .38" propellant choice.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    You might be better off with Unique in the .38 cases. Like you, full .357 is a bit too much (I am a wouse).

    There are some good threads (IIRC from guys like Outpost and Gibson) about "hot" .38 loads that might help.
    Don Verna


  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I don’t think 2400 will burn very clean for you staying in 38 Special pressure. Yes 2400 will shoot in 38 Spl, but even with the 175 grain boolits I expect you’ll have to settle on seeing some ash grains in your 38 barrel and cylinder.

    Herco is where I’d go. It excels in the Special cases. It’s bulky so it fills the cases decently which leads to consistent ignition. The powder can’t get too far from the primer. It’s about a grain slower than Unique, so at the same pressure, Herco gives about a grain more velocity. Herco burns clean at Special pressures.

    Also, since recoil is part of your consideration, Herco will give you less recoil than 2400 at the same boolit velocity. The recoil is based on the sum of the boolit weight and powder weight. So less powder weight, less recoil for the same velocity. Herco will probably get you all the recoil and enough velocity for .38 Special to make you happy.

    I’m not a fan of the 175 or heavier boolits in 38’s, especially the slow twist S&W’s (1 in 18.75”). I’ve not been able to get group size down small enough to make me happy. They do penetrate, but really a bit too much for me. I prefer the performance I get with 140-150 grain boolits in my .38 Special S&W’s.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I tend to load the .38 Special just as a .38 Special, not even to +P levels. Mainly because I have a few .38 Speial only revolvers and don't want to over stress them. I mainly use either 231 or Bullseye for nice economical target/ plinking loads.

    For .357 Magnum, most of my loads have been with 2400, although H110/296 works fine in some applications. I am finally getting to the point that I want to settle on one standardized load for my medium bore revolvers.

    I figure if I need more power than a normal for the caliber load, it is time to move to a more powerful gun.

    Robert

  5. #5
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    Mine is a Smith & Wesson (early 1980s) Model 64, and my bullet of choice is clone not too different from your Night Owl -- most weighing in at 170 grains. My "load of choice" for "hot load" is 4.4 grains of Bullseye; same load downed to an even four grains for "regular" shooting. A have used 2400 extensively, often remarking that 3031 is my "universal rifle" powder and 2400 has that distinction for handguns.
    However, a late afternoon/early evening shoot a few decades back illustrating the quantity of 2400 which appeared to be burning after bullet was expelled from 4-inch barrel... started my rethinking to another powder. Having used Bullseye in my wadcutter Model 52 loading, I thought, "why not?".
    And, have been using the 4.0 / 4.4 Bullseye loading for this (and similar) .38 S&W Special revolver with good accuracy and a lead/burnt powder-clean barrel.
    BEST!
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Georgekhan, any idea on the velocity for your Bullseye loadings? I do like the stuff

    For light fiddling around loads, I have the ability to rain bullets out of an old 10-cavity H&G #50 wadcutter mold. This 175 grain option (with a second mold in an HP version) will be to dial up the "THUD" factor. I do not own a .38 Special revolver that these could be dropped into, and if I ever do acquire one, it's likely to be a historical thing that would only get the wadcutters anyway. These heavy Ranch Dog bullets will be shot primarily in GP-100's and N-frame Smiths, with the occasional foray into SP-101's and .357-rated M640's.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  7. #7
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    I've tried a number of 38sp powders under heavy lead including a Blue Dot load I got from an old manual. I've settled on Unique or Red Dot/Bullseye or something in that range for loads that drive as fast as safe in the 38sp. Blue Dot worked but was very dirty. All the powders seem to come in around the same velocity so I look for the lowest pressure loads.

    I have not tried anything heavier than 158gr in the 38sp leaving those for my 357Mag. For 38sp loads I stop in the 140gr range.
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  8. #8
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    Spent a little time last year on 38-44 loads to be fired from N and L frame Smiths. I used Unique and HS6 exclusively for trials. Accuracy was decent, I think more testing would be needed for refinements. I used data from the Lee manual and others here who used the loads in 357's. BTW some 357 starting loads are listed in manuals at 38+p levels, so you aren't going blindly into it. I used those for starters.

    And it's not just the powder charge but the seating depth you need to watch. Some loads in the Lyman manual had 38 and 357 loads with .015 difference in seating depth. I loaded my 358429's to the crimp groove and the 358156 to the 2nd groove, to allow more room to work at lower pressure. Keep an eye on seating depth with your chosen projectile.

    Both N and L frames were 4" barrels, didn't hit 1000 fps with the loads I tried, which was what I was trying for.

    I think some older published 38-44 loads are in the magnum category for performance and pressures. Same goes for some loads by writers from back in the day.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    .38 Spl. Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”_______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
    Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
    Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

    “.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:
    _____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd____________902 fps, 14 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd___________947 fps, 11 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd___________981 fps, 18 Sd
    Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd___________926 fps, 37 Sd
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  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=Bigslug;5248208]Georgekhan, any idea on the velocity for your Bullseye loadings?]

    Kind of embarrassed -- with an Oehler 35p, a PACT, and, a Labradar -- I've never (as yet) chronied these. Kind if a utility load for utility revolvers -- e.g., NOT for my "target" firearms, hence I'm not fussy -- and, that I use these in a bevy of revolvers... Between weather, company here visiting this week -- it may be a few days. BUT, I will hope to chrony them and report. I "paint" primers on the 4.0 rounds with a yellow Sharpie; the 4.4 with blue. I generally carry 2 of the 4.0 followed by 4 of the 4.4... Hence, I should be able to readily chrony (and report) both. geo

  11. #11
    Boolit Master slughammer's Avatar
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    While not 38-44 level, I have used Power Pistol for 38+p loads.

    Over the chronograph, 4" 686 with 164gr Saeco 382 and 5.5 power pistol gets 890fps. Just enough thump and just enough gun to absorb it. (Unique at 5.0gr should be similar).

    That load could be worked up a notch higher; but it's comfortable and safe for use in my Kframes and occasionally my Jframe.

    If you want to use 2400, just ignore the unburnt powder. Run your loads over the chronograph and look at the extreme spread. Much more of the loading story is told by the chronograph.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
    Happiness is a couple of 38's and a bucket of ammo.

  12. #12
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    This is interesting, seems the old Colt had consistently higher velocities, which isn’t what I would expect considering it is chambered for 357, and the HD is chambered for 38Spl. Any ideas why this is what happened? Perhaps it’s the throat and bore dimensions? I have many old Colts and they consistently are tighter than the Smith’s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    .38 Spl. Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”_______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
    Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
    Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

    “.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:
    _____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

    Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd____________902 fps, 14 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd___________947 fps, 11 Sd
    Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd___________981 fps, 18 Sd
    Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd___________926 fps, 37 Sd

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarrinvz24 View Post
    This is interesting, seems the old Colt had consistently higher velocities, which isn’t what I would expect considering it is chambered for 357, and the HD is chambered for 38Spl. Any ideas why this is what happened? Perhaps it’s the throat and bore dimensions? I have many old Colts and they consistently are tighter than the Smith’s.
    Colt also had tighter cylinder gap of 0.005" vs. 0.008" for the S&W
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master 358429's Avatar
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    Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 358429 View Post
    Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    No. New Service .355 groove diameter with 14-inch twist, .358 cylinder throats.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 358429 View Post
    Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    I have a couple very early Pythons and you can tell the barrel has been lapped and gets tighter towards the muzzle. In the prewar revolvers my observations match Outposts, .355-.356 grooves and consistent .358 cylinder throats. I like to size my boolits .3575.

    The reason for my inquiry is that I do not have a prewar .357 and I wondered if Outpost had noticed anything different.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master 1006's Avatar
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    I like HS-6 for 38Special heavy loads.

    Reference 2400: I have read a few times that it works better with standard primers……Someone else may weigh in on it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by slughammer View Post
    While not 38-44 level, I have used Power Pistol for 38+p loads.

    Over the chronograph, 4" 686 with 164gr Saeco 382 and 5.5 power pistol gets 890fps. Just enough thump and just enough gun to absorb it. (Unique at 5.0gr should be similar).

    That load could be worked up a notch higher; but it's comfortable and safe for use in my Kframes and occasionally my Jframe.

    If you want to use 2400, just ignore the unburnt powder. Run your loads over the chronograph and look at the extreme spread. Much more of the loading story is told by the chronograph.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
    I tried Power Pistol when my safety director gave me a pound for 40 cal. Good velocity but very flasy
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  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Mr. Slug- I have experimented a bit for loads in my Heavy Duty and for now have settled on Unique powder. My revolver has a 5" barrel and I chronograph my loads with the 358439HP bullet at a bit over 1000 fps; my loads are about a grain more than top regular .38 loads and only for use in the Heavy Duty S&W (not K frames). I shot a number of these loads in various powder weights and settled on the one which produced the smallest standard deviation in velocity in my revolver (which was also the best accuracy). I tried 2400 powder too but the suggested starting point loads gave over 1200 fps, which is higher than I was looking for. I have not done much shooting yet with the heavier 358429 solid point bullet, and will be still experimenting with other powders to see if I can reach the old Heavy Duty velocities of 1100 fps and still retain the accuracy of the Unique powder loads.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master


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    To be perfectly honest, I don't care one bit about cleanliness, and would gladly shoot 2400. Bluedot would be a good option as well that could work a little better, but I wouldn't expect miracles. I think the suggestion for Herco was a good one, another fantastic choice would be 800X.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check