Did the chrono work yesterday with the loads in .357 brass through a 5" gun. Looks like somewhere around 1000 fps is where this project wants to go, and 10.3 - 10.5 grains of 2400 will accomplish that. . .in a .357 case.
I guess the question now is regarding the best way to get there in a .38 case. 2400 certainly worked for Elmer and less of it should be needed in the smaller case. Also thinking that something faster (Unique) will give the same speeds with less powder mass added to the recoil equation. Anyway, I have a more solidly defined goal now - if that helps you to help me.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
I have a 2" Ruger SP101 38 that I would feed heavier loads to but it mostly just sits in the safe. My other 38 is a 4" K38 and it gets what's most accurate out of it. A 160 over 3.2 of BE. Just a target or pest load but really fun to shoot. My 3" Model 60 is what I want to perform in practical terms.
"If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"
"A rat became the unit of currency"
Anyone ever try the lower H110 loads listed in the Cast bullet handbook #4?
I loaded and started testing the higher H110 loadings from #4.
The chrono said that the 172 grain bullet crossed 1100 ft/sec from a 2.25" barrel.
Has any yall used Winchester Autocomp in 38 special? What bullet weights did you try?
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Factory .38 Special +P and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads
.38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating____939 fps, 9 Sd_______1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44______994 fps, 23 Sd______1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s
“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:
Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5grs.AutoComp+P__902 fps, 14 Sd__________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Thank you outpost75.
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Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207
“There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”
Well, 2400 is officially out in the .38 case experiment. Got decent numbers over the chrono, but the unburned powder manifested itself with a functional liability - crud getting under the extractor on unloading and preventing the revolver from getting back into battery on the next reload. Magnum primers might help, I suppose but one works with what one has.
That ain't gonna fly, so rebooting with Unique. Will know how that works out in a couple weeks.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
You might want to give Accurate #5 or maybe #7 a try in the 38 Heavy Duty .
Accurate #5 is a bit slower than Unique and has a good pressure / burn rate in the 38 special case .
I have been trying Acc #5 out with 160 gr. cast Wadcutters and so far it seems a good match with a heavy load ... Acc #7 might be even a better match in the 38 HD loads .
Both Accurate #5 and #7 are faster than 2400 but that might be just what you are looking for .
Gary
Certified Cajun
Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
" Let's Go Brandon !"
For my 38 plus P, I was going to switch to power pistol over unique until I got some older lots of Win. 571 ( HS-6) and Winchester published a plus P 158 SWC load for it. Clean and measures wonderful. When I run out of it, I’ll go to power pistol if I can get it.
I’ve been loading the Lee c358-200 rf in 38sp cases with IMR 4227 with great success. 12 grains gets me to 915 fps out of a 4 3/4” barreled Pietta SAA clone and is very accurate and actually shoots to the sights! The bonus is the bullet is long enough that it won’t chamber in any 38sp revolver I have so I can’t mix them up.
Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.
Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)
Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing
Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated
In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.
Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps
Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115
All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.
...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.
Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...
These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.
From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.
➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch
ITEM 20H
PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN
This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.
This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.
This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.
This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL
Last edited by RJM52; 12-13-2021 at 07:00 PM.
Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...
The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.
The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.
Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity
148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380
150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps
155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps
158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210
No barrel length is listed...
Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)
148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380
150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310
158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240
165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025
I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.
S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.
As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...
Start low and work up using a chronograph...
Bob
Last edited by RJM52; 12-13-2021 at 08:20 PM.
Thanx the oldest lyman book I have is the #45. It came out in the early 70s. It is a contemporary of the Speer #8 and has similar loads except for the 4756 loads for .38spl..........
Chrono'd results of 11.0 A2400 w/158 Lee RNFP gave 1100+ fps from 3 and 4" bbl
Tim...if you are getting over 1100 fps with a 3" that is impressive...
What guns and what was the velocity difference....
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |