MidSouth Shooters SupplyRepackboxRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication
Load DataTitan ReloadingWidenersLee Precision
Reloading Everything
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Heat treat and PC?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156

    Heat treat and PC?

    I'm hoping some of you have tried this and can advise me.

    I want to harden my COWW castings AND PC them. It would seem that if I water drop or oven treat them they will simply be annealed in the PC process.

    What if they are dropped into cold water straight from the PC oven? Has this been tried and if so what are the results?

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
    bangerjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    out of here, wandering somewhere in the SW.
    Posts
    10,163
    What "super hardness" do you think you need????? One of major things PC brings is that we no longer need uber-hard alloys like in the old days of casting. That is old school. Today Fit is King! I shoot 9-12 hardness standard alloys + PC up to 2K FPS inn all cals with no leading or problems.

    Why do yo think you need to use water hardening?????????????????

    Yes, people have water dropped after PC but I have not heard of it gaining anything to speak of. Nothing new around here. You loose most of the water hardening by re-heating your boolits to 400F and then leaving them at that temp for 10-20 minutes. ( I always use 10).

    Just mix your alloy for 9-12 (saving expensive alloys!) and PC.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    rancher1913's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    plains of colorado
    Posts
    3,640
    yes you can but you need to be able to submerge the whole tray at once otherwise the boolets will stick together and leave bad spots when you break them apart.
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    jcren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    South, Central Ok
    Posts
    2,173
    I have water dropped right out of the pc oven and it certainly hardens the lead, as it makes it very difficult to size wheel weight bullets. Just a matter if you need that hardness or not.
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,535
    Hardening by heat treat also has time factors involved, both the process itself and age related change in hardness.

    http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

    Before you go to the trouble, determine why you want to do this. When powder coating there is not much need for harder bullets unless you are trying to push for high velocity rifle bullets.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Huskerguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    433
    I found this chart helpful, I did not do the work, just copied it. I do not water quench my bullets when pouring them. I have quenched bullets right when taking them out of the oven from coating them. I just grab the tray and slide them right into a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. I have no way of knowing if it really does make the lead harder as I do not test. I also use primarily range lead that tends to run a bit softer but in many thousands of bullets, I have never had a leading problem even with I used 45/45/10. The one advantage of water quenching freshly coated bullets is I can get started sizing them right away. Never had a problem with sticking or bumping them together. I would add that I do not push bullets hard, I don't have the need and I do not load lead for rifle.

    TATV Test

    Alloy= COWW BHN Hardness Gain
    air cooled 12.22
    water cooled 27.2
    air cooled PC 12.86
    air cooled cast/quenched PC 21.62 75%
    quenched cast/air cooled PC 14.46 -50%
    quenched cast/quenched PC 23.18 -15%

    Note: This is dependent on the amount of antimony and arsenic in the alloy.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Hardening by heat treat also has time factors involved, both the process itself and age related change in hardness.

    http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

    Before you go to the trouble, determine why you want to do this. When powder coating there is not much need for harder bullets unless you are trying to push for high velocity rifle bullets.
    Thanks for that link. that is excellent information.

    For what im doing now, the AC and aged WW will be fine but I will be playing with some higher velocities in 270 later this year. Pending deciding on a mold.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskerguy View Post
    I found this chart helpful, I did not do the work, just copied it. I do not water quench my bullets when pouring them. I have quenched bullets right when taking them out of the oven from coating them. I just grab the tray and slide them right into a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. I have no way of knowing if it really does make the lead harder as I do not test. I also use primarily range lead that tends to run a bit softer but in many thousands of bullets, I have never had a leading problem even with I used 45/45/10. The one advantage of water quenching freshly coated bullets is I can get started sizing them right away. Never had a problem with sticking or bumping them together. I would add that I do not push bullets hard, I don't have the need and I do not load lead for rifle.

    TATV Test

    Alloy= COWW BHN Hardness Gain
    air cooled 12.22
    water cooled 27.2
    air cooled PC 12.86
    air cooled cast/quenched PC 21.62 75%
    quenched cast/air cooled PC 14.46 -50%
    quenched cast/quenched PC 23.18 -15%

    Note: This is dependent on the amount of antimony and arsenic in the alloy.
    Thanks for that chart. I'm going to play with it later this year. Thinking to get a hardness tester.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    Did some casting and PC today. Mostly getting some 44 stuff ready for September. While at it I PCd some 105 9MM for the little 380. Went ahead and dumped them into cold water then did a pliers squeeze test compared to the same bullet straight from the casting bench. The quenched PC bullets were harder but not a very scientific test.

    I'll compare them again in a few weeks.

    Also learned that nonstick foil is only nonstick on one side.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20210821_125636_copy_600x800.jpg  

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,535
    LOL, I think most of us have had that problem once. That's why I use the silicone baking mats these days.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    I have some of those but I'd have to get them past the war department.

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    23
    If you want to harden them, drop the powder coated bullets into water when you take them out of the oven when powder coating. It works very well, and there is really no need to drop them into water when casting if you plan to powder coat them later. As others have said, I also no longer water quench pistol or rifle bullets, as I've had no leading with powder coated 45/70 wheel weight cast 350 gr. at 1750 FPS in my sharps rifle. I only water quench buckshot after powder coating as I want that hard, everything else is just cast and powder coated. Alloys vary from pure lead, wheel weights, scrap lead with a little tin and or linotype added. Works fine with no leading when just powder coated.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master hickfu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Salem Oregon
    Posts
    835
    I tried water dropping after PC but it made the bullets have a weird texture so the next time I did it I pulled them out and let them cool, later I heat treated them and then water dropped them. Looked a lot better that way.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    I wondered about doing that. I'll try that next time. I did drop some small nines straight from the PC oven and that seems to have worked pretty well.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master


    Walks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,028
    I've been doing it for a while now. I stand them up to PC & RAPIDLY dump them into a 3/4 full 5gal bucket of cold water.

    My SAECO Lead Hardness Tester says there is a definite hardness increase from air cooled to water quenched.
    I HATE auto-correct

    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

    SASS #375 Life

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Dragonheart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Katy, Texas
    Posts
    2,705
    Banger Jim gave you good advice. Just curious, if you PC do you realize you are putting a jacket on the bullet? A very slick jacket, but still a jacket.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,535
    If you aren't going to load a ton of rifle bullets, why not just add some tin to the alloy. Then no need to bother with quenching or age of bullets. Heck, plain WW alloy is probably good for 2000fps with GC and PC. Maybe a bit more depending on caliber and rifling twist.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    I'll be looking to move 270 COWW cast at around 2600 fps. I'll do a pure lead soft point and heat treat straight from the pc oven. What has been posted here and my experiment with the 9mm seems to confirm that the process will work. Of course the proof is in the pudding!

    These are some 44 mag that I just loaded. WW and PC then aged for three weeks. I don't think there's any need to heat treat these but I might give it a go just for funsies.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20210915_092630_copy_600x800_copy_425x383.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	142.2 KB 
ID:	288744

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20210915_092530_copy_800x600_copy_565x582.jpg 
Views:	29 
Size:	290.7 KB 
ID:	288745

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,397
    longcruise,
    Out of curiosity which mold are you going to use for .270 project?





  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    156
    I'm leaning toward the LBT 150 grain. Not many 277 options out there. Lee has a 135 grain but I'm looking for more weight. Custom is an option but probably won't go that route.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check