357 Magnum with IMR-4895

[Daekar]

Chronographed some duplex loads with the 158gr RF and I was pleased with the numbers, although there is room for improvement in the spread. I believe that deviation is the result of my powder scale struggling with very small measurement amounts, and in subsequent loadings I'm going to use a mechanical powder dropper which has proven very repeatable even with small amounts.
1.5gr Green Dot + 16.5gr IMR-4895 - 1473fps avg, spread = 49fps
2.0gr Green Dot + 16.0gr IMR-4895 - 1521fps avg, spread = 22fps

I am actually really pleased with the performance. I'm going to load up a few more and test for accuracy as well as I can - I don't have access to a shooting bench so accuracy for me usually falls into three categories: bad, OK, and good.

In my "bad," "OK," or "good" rating (calibrated for shooting at various sized target plates with iron sights offhand inside 100 yards) the 2.0gr Green Dot + 16.0gr IMR-4895 load rates a good. It is among the straightest-shooting loads I have developed for my Henry H015 Single Shot. I would absolutely consider using this load for anything which needed around 800ft*lbs of directly applied energy.

EDIT: Chronographed some duplex loads with the Accurate 35-245P. Eliminating unburned powder kernels took less Green Dot than with the 158gr boolit, but up to 2.5gr did not completely eliminate what I consider atypical residue in the barrel and my spider-sense told me not to venture further for reasons I can't articulate. Despite its velocity, because of the residue I don't consider the 1.0gr load a candidate for suppressor use. Will do more chrono and accuracy testing on 2.0gr load when I get some more time.

All values from single shot of each load:
0.5gr Green Dot + 12.0gr IMR-4895 - almost no reduction in unburned powder
1.0gr Green Dot + 11.5gr IMR-4895 - 1040fps, a single unburned kernel of powder and lots of residue
1.5gr Green Dot + 11.0gr IMR-4895 - 1104fps, no unburned powder, lots of residue
2.0gr Green Dot + 10.5gr IMR-4895 - 1151fps, no unburned powder, some residue
2.5gr Green Dot + 10.0gr IMR-4895 - 1197fps, no unburned powder, some residue

Additional velocity data from 5 shots with Accurate 35-245P:
2.0gr Green Dot + 10.5gr IMR-4895 - 1155fps (39 spread), no unburned powder, little residue; "good" accuracy.

[AlaskaMike]

Sounds like a very interesting experiment, and I like your caution.

Several years ago I experimented in using H4198 in .44 Mag carbine loads with my Rossi 92. I can't find my notes anymore, but if I recall correctly I ended up with a compressed load under a 295 grain gas check bullet. It was nicely accurate, but of course velocities weren't as high as with 296, for example. There was no significant residue left in the barrel as I remember. My next steps at the time was to start duplexing using Unique, but a move into a new house interrupted my experiment and I never got back into it.

Going back to some earlier discussion in this thread--I think a big reason why 4895 works better in the .22 Hornet than the .357 Mag isn't to do strictly with case capacity, but more because the Hornet is a slightly bottle necked cartridge. The more "overbore" a bottle necked cartridge is, generally speaking, the slower the powders which offer best performance. There's certainly more to it than that of course. I just hadn't seen any discussion of how straight-walled vs. bottle necked applies here, so I thought I'd mention it.

Mike

[Daekar]

Sounds like a very interesting experiment, and I like your caution.

Several years ago I experimented in using H4198 in .44 Mag carbine loads with my Rossi 92. I can't find my notes anymore, but if I recall correctly I ended up with a compressed load under a 295 grain gas check bullet. It was nicely accurate, but of course velocities weren't as high as with 296, for example. There was no significant residue left in the barrel as I remember. My next steps at the time was to start duplexing using Unique, but a move into a new house interrupted my experiment and I never got back into it.

Going back to some earlier discussion in this thread--I think a big reason why 4895 works better in the .22 Hornet than the .357 Mag isn't to do strictly with case capacity, but more because the Hornet is a slightly bottle necked cartridge. The more "overbore" a bottle necked cartridge is, generally speaking, the slower the powders which offer best performance. There's certainly more to it than that of course. I just hadn't seen any discussion of how straight-walled vs. bottle necked applies here, so I thought I'd mention it.

Mike

Glad you approve! Caution seems to me a reasonable thing... after all, I'm not in a hurry!

Interesting to hear that you had some success with rifle powder in 44 Mag. I would love to see some results with Unique!

I noticed what you pointed out about the bottlenecked cartridges and slow powder, but I confess that while I see the correlation I'm failing to really understand the reason why the correlation exists unless it has something to do with the ratio of bore volume to cartridge volume.

I just had a chance to test a few loads with my only other 357mag bullet, a 125gr TCBB sold by Missouri Bullets as Cowboy #2. It's Hi-Tek coated. I expected poor performance, but actually the light boolit wasn't really a liability. Not too shabby, all things considered. I've got 10 more rounds of the 2.0gr/18.0gr load on my bench but no time for accuracy and detail velocity testing this evening.

Boolit (Hi-Tek)	Green Dot (gr)	IMR-4895 (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.0	20.0	1221	????	Very light report hidden by sonic boom. Lots of unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.5	19.5	1362	????	Sharper report. Some unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.0	19.0	1479	????	Sharper report. Almost no unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.5	18.5	1593	????	Normal report. No unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.0	18.0	1673	OK/Good	Normal report. No unburned powder.

[358429]

(Preface this is how I feel I am not a ballistician.)

I think it has to do with the internal volume behind the bullet, as the bullet travels along

the bore, increasing available volume until the bullet uncorks the pressure by leaving

the barrel, and I think that the shape of the cartridge casing as it is fire forming into

the gun's chamber May contribute to a type of rocket jet effect if it is bottleneck to increase velocity efficiency for a given powder charge.

For example I feel that 4227 gives me significantly more power when loaded in 308 win as opposed to 357 mag( several months ago friends and I were

shooting at a steel plate with rifles and watching how hard it swung). Of course it's apples to oranges, the case volume and shape is different and the powder charges

are different and the bullets are different and the calibers are different Etc

But the powder charges and bullet weights are not really that far apart, if anyting the significantly larger internal volume of 308 should make them about the same but they are not.

20gr4227/172 grain in 308.

17gr4227/160 grain in 357.

The 357 rifle smack the plate about like a ball peen hammer. The 308 rifle smack the plates so hard that it ripped the ropes and broke them and started to bend the target frame.

The 357 load was very compressed and was pushing the bullets out of the case.

The 308 load sounded like Maracas when you shake the case you could hear the powder rattling.

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[358429]

Afterwards we did shoot the plate with the 308 Winchester with that lee bullet and 30 grains of IMR 3031.

Since then I've had a curiosity idea that what if it was safe and not dangerous to load that imr3031 into my 357 and shoot it from a carbine like my 77-357.



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[Daekar]

Afterwards we did shoot the plate with the 308 Winchester with that lee bullet and 30 grains of IMR 3031.

Since then I've had a curiosity idea that what if it was safe and not dangerous to load that imr3031 into my 357 and shoot it from a carbine like my 77-357.



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I suspect that there are a good number of rifle powders that are safe but non-optimal. Certainly anything that requires a duplex load of a faster powder to get a complete burn would almost certainly be safe by itself. I don't know anything about IMR-3031, where is it compared to IMR-4895? Or Lil'Gun?

[358429]

These are two burn rate charts that I found. I will not vouch for their accuracy however they passed my eyeball test.

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[Daekar]

Ah, very interesting! It looks like IMR-3031 and Benchmark are both faster burning than IMR-4895, but slower than Lil'Gun or H-110. There is a chance that a case stuffed full of either one might successfully reach an effective operating pressure with a hot primer.

I just happen to have several pounds of Benchmark sitting at my reloading bench, I might have to think about a safe way to approach testing it. The closer it is to functioning normally in the case, the more dangerous it is to fiddle with, I think.

[farmbif]

don't know how far north in va you are but id be more than happy to trade you pound for pound unique or lilgun for 4895 if your out of pistol powder

[Daekar]

don't know how far north in va you are but id be more than happy to trade you pound for pound unique or lilgun for 4895 if your out of pistol powder

Nah, I am not out, just curious about possibilities. I feel like the 357mag is really an ideal do-it-all cartridge when handloading, and I like the idea of contributing something to the body of knowledge about it.

[358429]

This is a fantastic thread. I just reread it. I appreciate it greatly the amount of work you put into testing and recording and reporting the results.

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[Daekar]

This is a fantastic thread. I just reread it. I appreciate it greatly the amount of work you put into testing and recording and reporting the results.

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That makes me really happy to hear, thank you!!

I got around to thinking my way toward a load with Benchmark, and since I failed to find something closer to 357 I'm thinking I'll start with data for 35 Remington. The case capacity is considerably higher, but at least the bore is the same.

I had trouble finding what I consider an authoritative case volume for 35 Remington, but I did find something that looked reasonably trustworthy which gave a value of 39gr of water. If we do the same exercise as we did when extrapolating a "don't blow myself up" load from 22 Hornet, we get a 17.4/39 = 0.4462 ratio, and based on a 35 Remington load with a 180gr boolit with a starting charge of 32.5gr of Benchmark, that would give us 14.5gr starting load for 357mag.... remarkably close to the 14.4gr we started with with IMR-4895.

Will report back with some preliminary results when I get time, this week is filling up quickly...

EDIT: OK, grabbed a few minutes before my wife got home to do Benchmark-only tests. Definitely faster burning than IMR-4895 but will need duplexing for this boolit.

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	14.5	1020	????	Very light report. Lots of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	15.5	1100	????	Light report. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	16.5	1160	????	Light report covered by sonic boom. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	17.5	1178	????	Lightly compressed. Medium report, some unburned powder. Possible out of character V/C ratio
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	18.5	1258	????	Compressed. Medium report, some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	19.5	1343	????	Compressed heavily enough for duplexing. Medium report, some unburned powder.

[Daekar]

Had a few moments to try some duplex loads with Green Dot and Benchmark:

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Lee 358-158RF	0.5	19.0	1466	????	Compressed. Medium report. Little unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.0	18.5	1494	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.5	18.0	1578	????	Compressed. Normal report. A single kernel of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	2.0	17.5	1609	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	2.5	17.0	1684	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.

[Daekar]

Got a chance to try a few loads with the Accurate 245P boolit:

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	880	????	Compressed. Medium report. Lots of unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	0.5	12.0	1001	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.0	11.5	1094	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.5	11.0	1163	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, some residue.
Accurate 35-245P	2.0	10.5	1183	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Accurate 35-245P	2.5	10.0	1218	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.

[AlaskaMike]

Good stuff--thanks for the update Daekar!

[dverna]

Got a chance to try a few loads with the Accurate 245P boolit:

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	880	????	Compressed. Medium report. Lots of unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	0.5	12.0	1001	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.0	11.5	1094	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.5	11.0	1163	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, some residue.
Accurate 35-245P	2.0	10.5	1183	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Accurate 35-245P	2.5	10.0	1218	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.

If at all possible, your data would be far more valuable if you would be kind enough to post group sizes.

Thanks,

[Char-Gar]

No THANKS!

[Daekar]

If at all possible, your data would be far more valuable if you would be kind enough to post group sizes.

Thanks,

I know what you mean, but I don't have a bench to shoot from so I can't really remove myself from the equation...that makes me doubt the value to others. I have posted accuracy data when I have bothered to take it, though, in my own bad / OK / good format. I actually didn't think anyone would care about accuracy data for the 245! Did you have a particular line you were interested in? I'm afraid that I can't really do it for every load, primers are still too dear in these parts.

[derek45]

get some H110/296 and good old 2400 for 357 mag

save the 4895 for the M1 Garand

.

[Daekar]

Got the last bit of testing done for now since I've gone through all my bullet and powder combinations!

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.0	21.0	1400	????	Compressed. Medium report. Some unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.5	20.5	1515	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.0	20.0	1617	????	Compressed. Medium report. No unburned powder, some residue.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.5	19.5	1647	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean. Possible out of character V/C.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.0	19.0	1722	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.5	18.5	1828	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.

I continue to be surprised at how effective this boolit with these powder combinations despite the fact that I expected to have more trouble with combustion when using them, not less. It's hardly an efficient use of powder, but it would certainly be immune to positional variation. Given how loud the upper loads are, I expect that a barrel longer than 22" would continue to gain velocity with these loads.