357 Magnum with IMR-4895

[Daekar]

Are you attempting to reduce the pressure available at the muzzle after the bullet has left the barrel? This is a very interesting experiment you are running. I am excited to know more

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Well actually at this point I'm just trying to achieve complete burn of the powder without regard to muzzle pressure or bullet velocity. If I get the same performance as Trail Boss but manage to get everything to burn, I'll be happy even if it's a highly inefficient use of powder. Duplex loads will probably be required to get things to work properly in the end. The great boolit gurus have decreed my venture pointless but not impossible... I'm inclined to agree with the former and feel hopeful about the latter.

Trade off the 4895 for something that works or just get some that works, unless you just like to tinker.

Oh just tinkering at this point. If I need speed I have a couple pounds of Lil'Gun, Green Dot for middle stuff, and Trail Boss for light stuff.

[358429]

Does the gun report have a different sound? I imagine a fwuump versus a Craack!

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[Texas by God]

I have loaded .44 magnum with 4320 before. I found the load in the old IMR pamphlet. I filed it under " Things I can do if I have to".
Good ammo, not great ammo.

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[Daekar]

Does the gun report have a different sound? I imagine a fwuump versus a Craack!

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Yes! That's precisely it! A very strange sound. I imagine that, if I were able to keep the sound while getting a complete burn, it would be very quiet indeed out of a suppressor.

[PAndy]

I shot a few rounds through my 32-20 with 4895 years ago. Sounded weird and I thought I stuck a bullet. It didnt. I was surprised to see a fairly good group at 100 yards, but I don't consider it a useful load. Many 32-20 rifles including mine shoot well with slow powders (RL7, 4198, h322) despite the unburned kernels.

[farmbif]

I like powders that fill the shell, no chance for kaboom error, but in all reality some things just work, like h110/296, 4227, 2400 in 357 mag,
not being a ballistics engineer or anything like that I stick to what is taught in reloading books, never to mix different powders. but that's just me. my experience witness or have an accident or two and I tend to be very careful in what I do.

[dannyd]

We used 5744 back in the 80’s and never got a complete burn; there was little piles of powder at every station. But I may try this again with a Large Rifle Primer or Large Pistol primer and see if the burn is any better.

[dverna]

If you decide on a duplex load, do some research.

It seems to me (and I have never tired it) but you need to keep the fast powder near the primer and not have it migrate into the slower powder...so a compressed load makes sense.

Not sure how vibration from carrying rounds around will affect powder migration. I would carry rounds primer down instead of primer up....but I am just guessing.

To me, it seems like a poor way to develop a load but if someone has nothing else suitable, it is a way to use slower than normal powders for a cartridge. I know some folks use up bargain surplus powders this way to save a few $$.

But in your case, 4895 is neither cheap or is it necessary to "use it up"; as it works well in many rifle loads...seems like a waste of "good" powder for no gain.

[Daekar]

If you decide on a duplex load, do some research.
...
...
To me, it seems like a poor way to develop a load but if someone has nothing
But in your case, 4895 is neither cheap or is it necessary to "use it up"; as it works well in many rifle loads...seems like a waste of "good" powder for no gain.

Yes, research definitely required! I haven't had the time to properly search for resources yet, but that's definitely the first order of business.

To be honest, this is more an exercise in curiosity than anything. I have already learned more about how cartridges and powders interact simply by asking the question, and I think pursuing this line of inquiry further will be interesting even if it is not eminently practical. I get your point about wasting powder, but since the goal of most of my guns is fun, I consider it simply part of the cost of this particular kind of fun! It's the same kind of questioning that has led me to my Encore pistol with 245gr boolits in the 357mag... if you start with "why not?" sometimes you can end up in surprisingly good places, or at least learn a lot about things in the process of failing. As long as that failure isn't explosive, I don't feel like it's time or resources wasted.

[Thumbcocker]

IMR used to have load data printed on cheap brown paper that listed lots of loads that didn't seem natural using rifle powders in handguns. I may still have one of the pamphlets in my stuff somewhere.

[Bazoo]

Interesting discussion. I’ve thought of using 4198 or 3031 in 357 or 44 magnum chambered rifles. I have neither, so never did more than think about it. 296 is a small rifle powder, so would be close to ideal I think. AA1680 or w680 could be made to work according to my research, but I’ve never done any experimenting with either.

[Daekar]

Interesting discussion. I’ve thought of using 4198 or 3031 in 357 or 44 magnum chambered rifles. I have neither, so never did more than think about it. 296 is a small rifle powder, so would be close to ideal I think. AA1680 or w680 could be made to work according to my research, but I’ve never done any experimenting with either.

I believe that W-296 is pretty much the same as H-110, and both are highly regarded as powder for 357mag, so your intuition is right on the money.

I took a few minutes this evening and tested 12.5gr IMR-4895 (compressed) load, same magnum rifle primers, under Accurate 35-245P sized to .358 in the Henry H015. Report was markedly sharper than the poof sound of the 158gr RF and shot to point of aim at about 20 yards, but was subsonic (not a surprise) and still left unburned powder grains. It appears that even with a very heavy boolit, a duplex load will be necessary.

[358429]

How long are your 245 grain 357 Magnum cartridges?

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[Daekar]

How long are your 245 grain 357 Magnum cartridges?

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I have 1.690" recorded on my OneNote entry for that load, although the metric I actually use is the setting on my Redding micrometer seater, which is basically all the way out.

That length works in both my Henry Single Shot and Encore. I continue to be surprised at how well it works. BadMan Bullets sells a 230gr WC which I had success with loaded to 1.600

[243winxb]

A revolver with the cylinder gap & short barrel may act very differently with IMR 4895?

[Daekar]

A revolver with the cylinder gap & short barrel may act very differently with IMR 4895?

Oh, absolutely. Even if you manage to get a full burn, I expect this would be a very inefficient choice for short barrels. Velocity would be very low since the barrel dwell time wouldn't be long enough for the slow powder to act.

[Duckiller]

Why are you using 30/06 powder in a 357 mag? Use a powder like H110/W296 or something similar for your pistol calibers even if you are shooting them in rifles.

[Daekar]

Why are you using 30/06 powder in a 357 mag? Use a powder like H110/W296 or something similar for your pistol calibers even if you are shooting them in rifles.

I usually do... but I'm prone to curiosity. So now I've had a chance to absorb some wisdom from our reloading gurus and learned firsthand about compressed loads and how different speed powders behave. Still more to learn!

Here's the first batch of duplex testing:
Tested several different duplex loads of Green Dot and IMR-4895. Each load had a total weight of 18gr and was highly compressed with a 158gr RF boolit, with the Green Dot added first to keep it right next to the small magnum rifle primer.
With 0.5gr of Green Dot there was a marked decrease of unburned powder. Report sharpened.
With 1.0gr of Green Dot there was almost no unburned powder. Report further sharpened.
With 1.5gr of Green Dot there was no unburned powder. Report sounded normal.
No pressure signs or uncharacteristic recoil for any of these loads. Chronograph numbers to come, the sky opened up while I was loading 5 testing rounds with 1.5gr Green Dot.

[PAndy]

I'll pass on the duplex loads here. But will follow to see what your chronograph says.

[NEKVT]

222 Rem is probably the smallest case you will find 4895 recommended for. I use H4895 in mine. The load is compressed and velocity and pressure is a bit less than the more popular powders for it but accuracy is outstanding and I always have it on hand. But you don't see it recommended even for the 221 Fireball that is a slightly shortened 222 Rem that operates at much higher pressure than the parent case and a 357 Mag is a long way from either of these in recommended burn rate. The old IMR reloading guides show just about all their powders for each cartridge listed but that is for for comparison, not necessarily a recommendation as in more detailed and practical reloading guides.