357 Magnum with IMR-4895

[Daekar]

*** THIS THREAD CONTAINS DISCUSSIONS OF USING POWDER OUTSIDE THE TYPICAL CARTRIDGE APPLICATION AND EVEN DUPLEX LOADS. THIS EXPERIMENTAL DATA IS OFFERED FOR YOUR INFORMATION ONLY. THESE LOADS WERE WORKED UP WITH MY DIES, MY ALLOY, MY SIZER, MY POWDER COAT, MY SCALE, AND TESTED IN A GUN WHICH IS RATED FOR CARTRIDGES THAT EXCEED MAXIMUM 357 MAGNUM PRESSURES. IF YOU BLOW UP YOUR J-FRAME OR 50 YEAR OLD LEVER ACTION PLAYING WITH THESE LOADS, THAT'S ON YOU.***

IF YOU DECIDE TO TRY THESE OUT REMEMBER:
1) Start low and work up just like anything else. I crammed as much rifle powder into a case as I could and verified that was safe before I started duplexing.
2) NEVER have more than one powder canister open on your bench at the same time. EVER. Do one, then the other.
3) There is a reason this data isn't in any loading manuals. While it has proven safe for me at the time of writing, there is no guarantee it will be safe for you.

"And thus ended the disclaimer. And the Lord saw that it was good, and covered the blessed behind of the original poster, and the warning was sent throughout the land that the People of the Lord might know the risk unto their necks. Amen."
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Original Post Text:

I was reading another thread somewhere this weekend and was surprised to learn that IMR-4895 has been used in little cartridges like the 22 Hornet. LoadData.com suggests a load of 12gr. with a 45gr bullet for a velocity of 1735fps. That got me thinking, I've got quite a bit of the stuff, could I use it in 357 magnum loads destined for my Henry Single Shot?

According to Nosler, the 22 Hornet holds 14.2gr of water with a 35gr bullet, while the 357 Magnum holds 17.6gr of water with a 158gr bullet.

That gives us a case capacity ratio of ~1.24. If we reduce that to 1.20 to account for the difference in bullet weight between the Nosler and LoadData.com numbers, that would give us 12gr * 1.2 = 14.4gr as a starting load for the 357. The difference in maximum pressures favors the 357, so we have a safety margin to start with. Perhaps starting with a 125gr boolit would be wise, although the bore volume is so much larger than the baby Hornet that maybe that isn't necessary.

Does that sound even vaguely plausible?

__________________

For those who haven't read the entire thread, the responses initially fell into a few basic categories:

1. This is a bad idea because it's dangerous.
2. This is a bad idea because it won't work.
3. This is a bad idea because it's wasteful of good rifle powder.
4. Use rifle powder in rifle cartridges and go buy some H-110 or W296 or 2400.
5. You'll shoot your eye out.
6. I tried this and it sort of worked and sort of didn't.

However, our gurus did explain to me some of the forces at work and educated me a bit on ways to move forward without necessarily endorsing exploration outside the manual. This is probably a good thing, well done gurus.

With additional information and a combination of foolish optimism and caution borne of my awareness of ignorance, I forged onward in my pointless quest to burn the wrong powder in my favorite cartridge!

Testing ensued, and kind, supportive posts followed.

I had a bunch of copy-paste from subsequent posts, but that was getting really confusing. So here are my results a more readable format:

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	IMR-4895 (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.0	20.0	1221	????	Very light report hidden by sonic boom. Lots of unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.5	19.5	1362	????	Sharper report. Some unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.0	19.0	1479	????	Sharper report. Almost no unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.5	18.5	1593	????	Normal report. No unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.0	18.0	1673	OK/Good	Normal report. No unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	14.4	????	Shot to point of aim at 10 yards	Very mild "foof" report. Lots of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	16.0	????	Shot to point of aim at 10 yards	Mild "foof" report. Lots of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	17.0	????	????	Mild "foof" report. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	18.0	????	????	Lighter than normal report. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.5	17.5	????	????	Report sharpened from straight IMR-4895. Marked decrease in unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.0	17.0	????	????	Report further sharpened from 0.5gr load. Almost no unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.5	16.5	1473	????	Report sounded normal. No unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	2.0	16.0	1521	Good	Report sounded normal. No unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	????	Shot to point of aim at 20 yards	Report sharper than 158gr boolit with IMR-4895. Lots of unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	0.5	12.0	????	????	Report sharpened. Unburned powder barely reduced from straight IMR-4895.
Accurate 35-245P	1.0	11.5	1040	????	Single unburned kernel of powder. Lots of residue.
Accurate 35-245P	1.5	11.0	1104	????	No unburned powder. Lots of residue.
Accurate 35-245P	2.0	10.5	1155	Good	No unburned powder. Little residue.
Accurate 35-245P	2.5	10.0	1197	????	No unburned powder. Little residue. Might have mild pressure on primer, but easy extraction.

This data is for Benchmark powder, NOT IMR-4895:

Gun: Henry H015 Single Shot, 357 Magnum
Brass: Hornady
Primer: CCI Small Magnum Rifle

Boolit (PC'd)	Green Dot (gr)	Benchmark (gr)	FPS	Accuracy	Notes
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.0	21.0	1400	????	Compressed. Medium report. Some unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	0.5	20.5	1515	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.0	20.0	1617	????	Compressed. Medium report. No unburned powder, some residue.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	1.5	19.5	1647	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean. Possible out of character V/C.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.0	19.0	1722	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Missouri 125gr Cowboy #2	2.5	18.5	1828	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	14.5	1020	????	Very light report. Lots of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	15.5	1100	????	Light report. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	16.5	1160	????	Light report covered by sonic boom. Some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	17.5	1178	????	Lightly compressed. Medium report, some unburned powder. Possible out of character V/C ratio
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	18.5	1258	????	Compressed. Medium report, some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.0	19.5	1343	????	Compressed heavily enough for duplexing. Medium report, some unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	0.5	19.0	1466	????	Compressed. Medium report. Little unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.0	18.5	1494	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	1.5	18.0	1578	????	Compressed. Normal report. A single kernel of unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	2.0	17.5	1609	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder.
Lee 358-158RF	2.5	17.0	1684	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Accurate 35-245P	0.0	12.5	880	????	Compressed. Medium report. Lots of unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	0.5	12.0	1001	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.0	11.5	1094	????	Compressed. Medium report. Almost no unburned powder.
Accurate 35-245P	1.5	11.0	1163	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, some residue.
Accurate 35-245P	2.0	10.5	1183	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.
Accurate 35-245P	2.5	10.0	1218	????	Compressed. Normal report. No unburned powder, clean.

That's more or less it for now since I've run out of powder/boolit combinations to test. While it's hardly comprehensive, and (as has been pointed out) lacks any but the most scanty data on accuracy, I feel like it's illustrative of some general principles of duplex loading, at least in the 357 magnum. I might add to this later if I get another powder or boolit, we shall see.

If you have a particular load you're interested in seeing accuracy data for, I can do that so please post in this thread and I'll try to pay attention. "But this comes with a couple of caveats," foremost among them being that I don't have a bench and therefore my accuracy rating scale really doesn't get more detailed than "Bad" (unusuable), "OK" (probably doesn't impact my ability to hit target gongs offhand inside 100 yards too much), and "Good" (this load is more accurate than I am).

Thanks for reading my experiments!

[Walks]

Not for me. Think maybe ya just can't get enough powder in the case to make a difference.
Who knows what the pressure would be.

[reddog81]

Maybe reasonable if for some reason I had no access to any of the dozens of powders that are more appropriate, have load data and are significantly cheaper. You'd be better off offering up the 4895 for trade on something useable rather than wasting it on 357. With many appropriate powders you'd get twice as many loads per pound.

[dannyd]

Anything is possible; milled out primer pockets on 38 Special and 357 magnum for Large Rifle Primers. Tried them with my normal loads got some of the best chronograph number for the loads ever.

So who knows just be careful.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

you'll have very slow velocity and lots of unburnt powder.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...6-rifle-powder

[uscra112]

Just for jollies I ran it in Quickload. From a 24 inch RIFLE barrel, a compressed load under a 200 grain bullet would give you around 1000 fps, and less than half the powder would burn. In a a handgun far less.

In the K-Hornet (I already have the model set up) A casefull would get you 2000 fps, at around 20kpsi. Might do in a pinch, if you had nothing else and were desperate for a squirrel or a bunny to stave off starvation.

[Daekar]

Just for jollies I ran it in Quickload. From a 24 inch RIFLE barrel, a compressed load under a 200 grain bullet would give you around 1000 fps, and less than half the powder would burn. In a a handgun far less.

In the K-Hornet (I already have the model set up) A casefull would get you 2000 fps, at around 20kpsi. Might do in a pinch, if you had nothing else and were desperate for a squirrel or a bunny to stave off starvation.

OK, so that's a lousy outcome. I guess my question is, why? What is it about the difference in case geometry which means a complete burn in my full power rifle cartridges, but not in the 357 magnum from a longer (22") barrel length with the same weight class of bullet and far less powder?

Is this because the bore volume is enough larger that the slow powder can't reach sufficient pressure when the boolit starts moving down the barrel and increasing the effective volume of container? If that's the case, what is different about the many .45 cal cartridges listed for this powder on LoadData?


Is it insufficient primer performance to ignite the powder? I have some some small rifle magnum primers that I was going to use to kick it off rather than pistol primers, if that makes a difference.

I don't mind coming up with an idea which doesn't work, but I really hate not understanding why it wouldn't work.

[smithnframe]

Not on my bench!

[243winxb]

Nosler case volumes are to base of bullet, i think?

IMR 4895 in 357 mag may work? IMR 4895 works well with reduced loads. The bigger the bore, the faster burn rate powder is needed. Photo 1999 IMR data.

[dale2242]

The smallest cartridge that I have used IMR4895 successfully was the 223 with 50-52 gr bullets.
I am not saying that it can`t be used in smaller cases.
I just haven't tried it.
I have a lot of faster burning powders that will be much more efficient in smaller cases.

[Larry Gibson]

Nosler case volumes are to base of bullet, i think?

IMR 4895 in 357 mag may work? IMR 4895 works well with reduced loads. The bigger the bore, the faster burn rate powder is needed. Photo 1999 IMR data.

The "C" behind the gr amount means the loads are "C"ompressed. With a 125 gr cast bullet in the 357 i doubt 4895 will reach a pressure where it will burn efficiently and not leave a lot of residue in the bore. With GC'd 180 - 200 gr bullets it might.....but that would remain to be determined through testing.

[243winxb]

The 357 may have more room then the hornet?

When i said, may work, meaning the bullet may exit the muzzle. Yes, should be dirty. May produce squibs?

Overall, not a good idea.

[MT Gianni]

According to Nosler, the 22 Hornet holds 14.2gr of water with a 35gr bullet, while the 357 Magnum holds 17.6gr of water with a 158gr bullet.

That gives us a case capacity ratio of ~1.24. If we reduce that to 1.20 to account for the difference in bullet weight between the Nosler and LoadData.com numbers, that would give us 12gr * 1.2 = 14.4gr as a starting load for the 357. The difference in maximum pressures favors the 357, so we have a safety margin to start with. Perhaps starting with a 125gr boolit would be wise, although the bore volume is so much larger than the baby Hornet that maybe that isn't necessary.

Does that sound even vaguely plausible?

That ignores the bore ratio. You might get enough pressure to burn with a 280 gr rifle bullet but it is in no way a ideal powder for the cartridge.

[1hole]

That got me thinking, I've got quite a bit of the stuff, could I use (4895) in 357 magnum loads destined for my Henry Single Shot?

You sure could, safely too. Who knows, you might even be able to hit a 100 yard target if you aim high enough.

[Daekar]

At this point I know there are better options and the idea is kind of stupid. But I am curious...

So I loaded up a Lee 358-158 RF over 14.4gr of 4895 with a small rifle magnum primer. No squib, the bullet exited the 22" barrel of the Henry no problem, and I actually hit the pistol spinner I was aiming for about 10 yards away. There were unburned powder sticks left in the barrel, although not many. Clearly, anything not compressed isn't going to work well enough to bother with... still, I think I will see what I can get it to do when I have some spare time. If I can get complete combustion I will be pleased regardless of the performance. It might be acceptable for subsonic loads with those 245gr boolits I have been playing with.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Maybe try a duplex load, a few kernels of FF under the 4895.

[bluejay75]

Go with as good of a crimp as you can get on it or maybe go to a heavier Boolit. A bullet jammed into the lands, good crimp and hot primer should get you a complete burn.

[Daekar]

I tested charges with a 158gr boolit from 14.4 to 18.0gr (definitely compressed) without breaching the sound barrier and without achieving complete combustion. Don't see why adding another grain or two of powder would change that since it's already compressed (explain to me why I am wrong if I am, please!)

Going to have to try 245gr boolits next. If that doesn't work, I will need to learn about duplex loads... I have some Green Dot I can use to kick off the burn, but I am not comfortable going there without finding a bit more information.

[358429]

Are you attempting to reduce the pressure available at the muzzle after the bullet has left the barrel? This is a very interesting experiment you are running. I am excited to know more

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[popper]

Trade off the 4895 for something that works or just get some that works, unless you just like to tinker.