38 bpcr?

[Jokester]

Hello everyone,

Ever since I cut on my teeth on BPCR with a 50-70 Gov't Remington Rolling Block, I've dreamed of owning a Winchester 1885 Single Shot. I'm in the process of counting pennies to save up for one and I'm starting to think about chamberings. I've always thought I'd go with a long 45 or 50 in the <90 range but am having second thoughts.

While I still love the 50-70 Gov't, she kicks like a mule and eats supplies like a family of 5. I'm looking for something a little softer shooting, and a little less hungry. For some reason the 38-55 caught my eye. However, in my research I've found that the 38-55 is a little anemic and started to branch out. I didn't know that the 38s had such a large family. What I've found is:

38-50 Remington Hepburn: 30 Army shortened and fireformed to 38
38-55: Self explanatory
38-56: Not too sure on this one honestly.
38-70: 45-70 Gov't sized down to 38?
38-72: 405 sized down to 38?
38-90: 45-90 sized down to 38? More of a 38 Black Powder Express?

Which 38's do y'all recommend?

I've also read that the 38's are slightly finicky to figure out, but I've always thought of building up a good load part of the fun and less of a chore so I wouldn't mind really dialing a load in.

Basically my interest in the 38 BPC has been piqued and while I'm still not totally sold on it I'd love to learn more about it. Similarly while the long 45's and 50's are not entirely off the table I'd like to see what y'all have for recommendations for a 1885. The goal would be again a softer shooting, lighter rifle, that would still be good for up to 600 yards and maybe having fun poking out to 1000.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[kootne]

38/56 WCF is the 45/70 bottlenecked, 38/70 WCF is similar but made 2.4" from 45/90, 38/90 WCF is it's own lonely thing, a very slightly straight tapered, 3.25 case. The only one I have used is the 38/55, as 200 yard offhand rifle for black powder schuetzen, which was it's original purpose and still one of the very best choices for that game. It was developed by Marlin for their Ballard rifles.

[Gunlaker]

I'd go with a .38-50 Remington Hepburn. It's actually much older than the .30-40 Krag, but can easily be formed from those cases. I know that a number of people shoot them in silhouette. I've only shot mine to 200, but it's very accurate. I'd do some research on twist rate. Mine is a gain twist ending in 1:14, but the fast 1:12 twist is popular.

Cases are really easy to form, it holds a little more powder than a .38-55. The dies are probably pretty expensive. Mine came with the rifle.

Chris.

[beltfed]

Had started out with a Brg BPCR 45-70. Great rifle, but as you know. Recoil is tiring,etc
Then worked with a 38-72/10 twist. Great potential, but the rifle setup was not the best.
Then a 40-72/12twist Finicky.

Next working with 40-65s/ 16 twist. Great moderate recoil caliber with my 371 gr DDEPP clocking 1402.
Works well out even to 1000yds.
THEN, I picked up a Brg BPCR rebarrelled to 38-50 Rem Hep., 10 twist Douglas.
This has been a GREAT choice in a light recoil, but with my 360 grain DDEPP bullets clocks 1360fps
and is a minute of angle gun, easy on powder, and building a load was like the proverbial "falling off a log" easy.
Even the point of repeated hits on a bowling pin at 600yds.
I would highly recommend the 38-50. It has about 10percent more powder capacity than the 38-55, and
brass is easily formed by necking up 30-40 K brass.
A friend is also having great results with his 38-50/12 twist Ron Smith barrel
with a 345gr DDEPP bullet i designed for him. That bullet also shoots very well in mty 10 twist barrel
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Here is a couple of picks of 200yds groups from my 10 twist 38-50 with the 360 gr and the 345 grain DDEPP loads
beltfed/arnie

[Jokester]

38/56 WCF is the 45/70 bottlenecked, 38/70 WCF is similar but made 2.4" from 45/90, 38/90 WCF is it's own lonely thing, a very slightly straight tapered, 3.25 case. The only one I have used is the 38/55, as 200 yard offhand rifle for black powder schuetzen, which was it's original purpose and still one of the very best choices for that game. It was developed by Marlin for their Ballard rifles.

Thank you for clearing up my confusion about the different cartridges!

I'd go with a .38-50 Remington Hepburn. It's actually much older than the .30-40 Krag, but can easily be formed from those cases. I know that a number of people shoot them in silhouette. I've only shot mine to 200, but it's very accurate. I'd do some research on twist rate. Mine is a gain twist ending in 1:14, but the fast 1:12 twist is popular.

Cases are really easy to form, it holds a little more powder than a .38-55. The dies are probably pretty expensive. Mine came with the rifle.

Chris.

Thank you. I saw that some people had luck with a gain twist, who even makes gain twist rifles for BPCR?

Had started out with a Brg BPCR 45-70. Great rifle, but as you know. Recoil is tiring,etc
Then worked with a 38-72/10 twist. Great potential, but the rifle setup was not the best.
Then a 40-72/12twist Finicky.

Next working with 40-65s/ 16 twist. Great moderate recoil caliber with my 371 gr DDEPP clocking 1402.
Works well out even to 1000yds.
THEN, I picked up a Brg BPCR rebarrelled to 38-50 Rem Hep., 10 twist Douglas.
This has been a GREAT choice in a light recoil, but with my 360 grain DDEPP bullets clocks 1360fps
and is a minute of angle gun, easy on powder, and building a load was like the proverbial "falling off a log" easy.
Even the point of repeated hits on a bowling pin at 600yds.
I would highly recommend the 38-50. It has about 10percent more powder capacity than the 38-55, and
brass is easily formed by necking up 30-40 K brass.
A friend is also having great results with his 38-50/12 twist Ron Smith barrel
with a 345gr DDEPP bullet i designed for him. That bullet also shoots very well in mty 10 twist barrel
beltfed/arnie

Thank you. Honestly in all my research on these 38s and BPCR in general you're name comes up often! And I think I'm a bit confused as I figured 38-55 would hold more powder because I thought it was caliber over grains of powder? And do you think the 38-50 could feasibly perform out to 1000 just for fun?

And sorry for all the questions, but why do you say the 38-72 was finicky? Do you think its even redeemable or a lost cause?

Thank you everyone.

[beltfed]

Jokester,
I figure that for good cartridge "balance", I think for my purposes that the 38-72 holds too much powder for good
balance in a 38 cal. I have come to believe that the 38-50 RH is about the Optimal balance of powder capacity
and bullet weights/velocity that can achieve good BPCR accuracy even out to 1000 yds. I do hope to get to shoot the 38-50 at 1k yds. in the near future.
What with the ballistics of it, I believe it will not be "embarrassing" at long range.
beltfed/arnie


beltfed/arnie

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use a 38/55 1:12" twist to shoot a 370gn custom boolit over 50gn of Swiss No.2. Most accurate rifle I've ever used.

[Shanghai Jack]

I use a 38/55 1:12" twist to shoot a 370gn custom boolit over 50gn of Swiss No.2. Most accurate rifle I've ever used.

That's a whole passel of boolit there!

[Jokester]

Jokester,
I figure that for good cartridge "balance", I think for my purposes that the 38-72 holds too much powder for good
balance in a 38 cal. I have come to believe that the 38-50 RH is about the Optimal balance of powder capacity
and bullet weights/velocity that can achieve good BPCR accuracy even out to 1000 yds. I do hope to get to shoot the 38-50 at 1k yds. in the near future.
What with the ballistics of it, I believe it will not be "embarrassing" at long range.
beltfed/arnie


beltfed/arnie

Just out of curiosity, whats the max charge that can physically fit in a 38-50?

And honestly, I think I'm pretty sold on the round itself so I'm thinking its time to start looking at a barrel manufacturer.

I've read that a faster twist rate either 12 or 10 is preferable, and that a gain twist might be beneficial. Do you have any input?

Similarly, chamber wise, I see you Paper Patch. I've personally never paper patched but I've read about its benefits. Does the chamber have to be different compared to a normal Grease Groove chamber?

And again, thank you. I know I could probably just keep researching, but it always easier to hear it from the horse's mouth.

I use a 38/55 1:12" twist to shoot a 370gn custom boolit over 50gn of Swiss No.2. Most accurate rifle I've ever used.

If I'm going to be totally honest, the long skinny case, coupled with a long skinny bullet is what first drew me towards the 38s. Those rounds are gorgeous. How far have you accurately shot the 38-55?

[beltfed]

Jokester,
1. I am loading 67 grains of Swiss 1.5 plus a 0.060 LDPE wad which before slight (intended) compression,
fills the Fire formed cases "to maybe 0.020" from the case mouth. Then I compress to allow about 0.110" for
seating the bullet which is a JIM371360E (buffalo arms catalog) that I designed. This is a DDEPP bullet -DualDiameterEllipticalPaperPatch design.
base band/major diameter patches to about 0.379", is about 0.125" long. So bullet finger seats into the case so as to just seat firmly into the lead
of the Standard GG chamber. The body of the bullet with paper slips snugly on to the lands for great concentricity.

2. I have shot the rifle accurately so far out to 600yds. Last year, for example "one shot one kill" on a 600yds bowling pin. Then my friend tried the rifle,
and he also "one shot, one Kill' on the 600yds bowling pin.
My rifle/Douglas 10 twist barrel was octagoned , fitted and chambered by Mike Lewis. Great job. Steve Durren fitted and chambered Ron Smith
gain twist (end in 12 twist) barrels to rifles belonging to a couple friends. They also shoot very well with a slightly shorter bullet JIM371345E, 345gr.
Hope I have helped you out
beltfed/arnie

[Jokester]

Jokester,
1. I am loading 67 grains of Swiss 1.5 plus a 0.060 LDPE wad which before slight (intended) compression,
fills the Fire formed cases "to maybe 0.020" from the case mouth. Then I compress to allow about 0.110" for
seating the bullet which is a JIM371360E (buffalo arms catalog) that I designed. This is a DDEPP bullet -DualDiameterEllipticalPaperPatch design.
base band/major diameter patches to about 0.379", is about 0.125" long. So bullet finger seats into the case so as to just seat firmly into the lead
of the Standard GG chamber. The body of the bullet with paper slips snugly on to the lands for great concentricity.

2. I have shot the rifle accurately so far out to 600yds. Last year, for example "one shot one kill" on a 600yds bowling pin. Then my friend tried the rifle,
and he also "one shot, one Kill' on the 600yds bowling pin.
My rifle/Douglas 10 twist barrel was octagoned , fitted and chambered by Mike Lewis. Great job. Steve Durren fitted and chambered Ron Smith
gain twist (end in 12 twist) barrels to rifles belonging to a couple friends. They also shoot very well with a slightly shorter bullet JIM371345E, 345gr.
Hope I have helped you out
beltfed/arnie

You absolutely have, I really appreciate it. With a name like 38-50, I'm impressed that 67 grains can fit.

What barrel length did you go with?

[bigted]

Just as an aside concerning the 38-55.

The 38-55 was loaded with a case FULL of powder then a card wad over powder ... the boolit was either breech seated or muzzle loaded down onto the card wad. This was a target round and reloads were in no hurry.

The case will hold 55 grains but hardly any room to seat a boolit. I load 48 grains which is heavily compressed with 2 or 3F powder. Honestly 38 to 40 grains is my most loaded round with a 250 grain greaser.

No experience with patched in my 38 but my Miroku Hiwall and my Marlin 93 both are just way fun. No long range with em but I read of others shooting 800 yds+ with like 10 grains of Unique powder.

My vote is for the economic 38-55. Simple reloading. Easy case supply. Very easy recoil. To me they look like a 45-90 shrunk to 38. The 38-55 can be had in historical .380 or like my Miroku ... .375 which is very nice with a plethera of available boolit molds as well as factory bullet availability. My Marlin has been religned back to .380 and the longer case chamber. Both my 38's are just a hoot!

[beltfed]

Jokester,
My 38-50RH full tapered octagon barrel length is 30"/mzl 0.95" across flats-what it came with when I bought it "used" It is a Browning BPCR that had been rebarrelled. Weight with irons 12#7oz, Wt with JTS scope 13#8oz. It makes weight for BPCR Silhouette .
Great for iron sights-long sight radius. But in a multipurpose rifle, I would probably go with a 28" barrel, maybe slightly lighter profile if I was going to use it for hunting..
Actually, I am now shooting it with a 6X Lyman Jr Target Spot. Will be shooting a
Midrange BPTR match this Thurs and Friday 300,500,600yds
beltfed/arnie

[JKR]

Jokester,
Lately I’ve been having fun with an old High Wall that I had re lined and chambered in 38-55. I have lots of experimenting yet to do but I’ve had pretty good results with 305 grain bullet from an Accurate mold as well as a groove diameter PP bullet for a Distant Thunder mold that Jim Made up for his 375 H&H. I’ve used 50 grains of OE 1 1/2 with both bullets. The twist is 1in 14.
Recently I took the rifle to a gong shoot with the intention of using it only for the 200 yard targets and then switching to my 45-70 for the rest. It shot so well at 200 that I decided to use it at 300 then again at 400. I believe it would’ve held up for 500 as well but I didn’t have enough ammunition to finish, so I had to switch rifles.
The 38-55 is a fun and versatile little cartridge. It’s easy on powder, lead, and the shoulder.
Having said that, while at a match recently, Arnie showed me his 38-50. What a cool little cartridge! I believe it has all the good qualities of the 38-55 with the additional benefit of more powder capacity. If you’re thinking of mid range matches and maybe trying it at long range, I think this would be the way to go.
JKR