Duplicate This M1 Carbine Finish? (Not Parkerizing)

[35 Whelen]

I've acquired some M1 Carbines that have this really nice finish on them. A couple of them were entirely finished with it, then some only the bolt. I've heard it called Dulite, but whatever it is, it looks almost like a heavy bluing, yet under some light it appears black.





Any suggestions to duplicate it? I wondered if a rust blue on the typically unpolished parts might look close?

Thanks in advance-

35W

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, Sir, speaking as an ex-professional metal finisher-- Dulite is a brand of bluing salts. Used by many firearms manufacturers at one time or another, including Ruger. It produces a very nice blue/black finish, and I found it far superior to some other brands such as Brownell's. I'll just rattle along a bit, and you can take out of it what you wish. First of all, the US M1 Carbine was not blued, it was Parkerized. Parkerizing varies in shades from grey green to grey. If a carbine is blued it has either been refinished when it passed into civilian hands from the military as surplus, or it was not originally military and was produced by one of several civilian manufacturers for sale on the civilian marked, such as American Military Armaments, Iver Johnson, Universal, IMI, Plainfield, etc., etc. The end result of appearance of a bluing job is 90% in the preparation and polishing-- or lack thereof. A dull blue finish can be obtained by sand blasting, and a very shiny mirror surface by polishing to a high degree before bluing, and everything in between. Looking at your photos it would appear that the finish falls into the "everything in between" area. A blasting with a fine grit sand and a dip in some Dulite bluing tanks should match that nicely.

[35 Whelen]

Well, Sir, speaking as an ex-professional metal finisher-- Dulite is a brand of bluing salts. Used by many firearms manufacturers at one time or another, including Ruger. It produces a very nice blue/black finish, and I found it far superior to some other brands such as Brownell's. I'll just rattle along a bit, and you can take out of it what you wish. First of all, the US M1 Carbine was not blued, it was Parkerized. Parkerizing varies in shades from grey green to grey. If a carbine is blued it has either been refinished when it passed into civilian hands from the military as surplus, or it was not originally military and was produced by one of several civilian manufacturers for sale on the civilian marked, such as American Military Armaments, Iver Johnson, Universal, IMI, Plainfield, etc., etc. The end result of appearance of a bluing job is 90% in the preparation and polishing-- or lack thereof. A dull blue finish can be obtained by sand blasting, and a very shiny mirror surface by polishing to a high degree before bluing, and everything in between. Looking at your photos it would appear that the finish falls into the "everything in between" area. A blasting with a fine grit sand and a dip in some Dulite bluing tanks should match that nicely.

Not to pick nits, but some of the very early Inland carbines were blued. Also, many of those that have been imported back from foreign countries were refinished over there. The blued (?)carbine pictured above is one of the recent ones imported from Italy that Midway sold. Evidently Italy refinished many of them. Also, if you can find carbines that haven't been refinished, it's very common for the bolts to be blued, and that's why I'm asking.

I'm set up to do Parkerizing and am going to do a couple of my carbines, but I'd like for the bolts to look original and be blued. So you're saying that if the bolt isn't polished, it should come out looking matte? Or should I bead blast it? I've seen matte bluing on rifles, but it doesn't look like the items pictured above...at least to me. I was asking about rust bluing because I don't really want to get set up to use Dulite if I'm only going to do a couple of bolts, firing pins and extractors.

Thanks for chiming in.

35W

[nicholst55]

https://du-lite.com/

[Outpost75]

Dulite Phos-steel is a black iron phosphate which is more durable than the common black oxide. They also have a manganese phosphate which meets military standards.

The manganese phosphate commonly used in the EU is sold under the trade name Fermangan

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, except for the fact that some early carbines were blued, an insignificant number compared to the total, I'd have to call my response accurate. In fact, I had one of the early Inland carbines. Sorry I let it go. I'm left with 2 Standard Products and 1 Winchester, plus 2 civilian versions. Like I said, in 90% of the cases, if they're blue they were refinished. There's a 90% chance that any given carbine was originally Parkerized. I've got 5 carbines in my accumulation and only one has a blue bolt. I don't know if it was issued that way or not. Like most military weapons, parts get swapped around. There are round bolts and flat bolts that were original to certain vintage carbines, but can be found in any carbine. If you are trying to recreate a "correct" carbine of a certain make and vintage, then go with what someone like Bruce Canfield tells you in one of their collector books.

I can agree that you do not want to get set up in the hot bluing business for such a small amount of work. Parkerizing is a much better alternative, and I would stay away from rust bluing as that's not an authentic finish for the carbine. You always have the choice to send the work out to someone in the refinishing business.

The photo you have provided of the blued bolt is a good example of what I'm about to explain. The appearance of bluing, in it's various grades, is a matter of light reflection. A very smooth (highly polished) surface will appear shiny, whereas a courser polish will not reflect light as easily and appears dull. One way to achieve the dull finish is by coarse sand blasting before bluing. The bolt in the photo does not look authentic as to finish.

I don't think I can contribute much more. Good luck with your project.

DG

[35 Whelen]

Well, except for the fact that some early carbines were blued, an insignificant number compared to the total, I'd have to call my response accurate. In fact, I had one of the early Inland carbines. Sorry I let it go. I'm left with 2 Standard Products and 1 Winchester, plus 2 civilian versions. Like I said, in 90% of the cases, if they're blue they were refinished. There's a 90% chance that any given carbine was originally Parkerized. I've got 5 carbines in my accumulation and only one has a blue bolt. I don't know if it was issued that way or not. Like most military weapons, parts get swapped around. There are round bolts and flat bolts that were original to certain vintage carbines, but can be found in any carbine. If you are trying to recreate a "correct" carbine of a certain make and vintage, then go with what someone like Bruce Canfield tells you in one of their collector books.

I can agree that you do not want to get set up in the hot bluing business for such a small amount of work. Parkerizing is a much better alternative, and I would stay away from rust bluing as that's not an authentic finish for the carbine. You always have the choice to send the work out to someone in the refinishing business.

The photo you have provided of the blued bolt is a good example of what I'm about to explain. The appearance of bluing, in it's various grades, is a matter of light reflection. A very smooth (highly polished) surface will appear shiny, whereas a courser polish will not reflect light as easily and appears dull. One way to achieve the dull finish is by coarse sand blasting before bluing. The bolt in the photo does not look authentic as to finish.

I don't think I can contribute much more. Good luck with your project.

DG

It appears Inland used bluing/black oxide on the entire rifles until late 1943. I'm still looking into the bolts, but as far as I can tell, bluing/black oxide was always used on the bolts. So it would seem that if a carbine is blue it is either very old and original, or it's been refinished, most likely the latter. Conversely, if a bolt wears a Parkerized finish, it likely has been refinished. One simply needs to search the ol' www for images of M1 Carbines, and when you find them that are in obvious original condition(flip sight, no bayonet lug, high wood stock), you'll find they'll have "blued" bolts. Here's a really good example. Please don't take this as trying to prove a point or arguing, just harmless banter.

Regarding light reflection, here is a good example-

The bolt pictured above (again), oiled-

Same bolt, dry-


So again, when I Park a couple of my carbines, I'd like to figure out how to blue/black oxide the bolts and make them look as original as possible....without buying a 55 gallon drum of Dulite.

35W

[Rapier]

Interesting, my 3 digit serial number, original, as issued, Juke Box, is parkerized, green, all matching, head to foot. Not one speck of black or blue anywhere.
I learned a long time ago, 50 years as a collector, never say, never or always. When you do, it may show up the next day.

[Wayne Smith]

And how many manufacturers were making them in 1943-45? Five, seven? No way to tell they all did exactly the same thing all the time under wartime conditions anyway - and that's the original manufacturers. We set standards that they never had.

[35 Whelen]

Interesting, my 3 digit serial number, original, as issued, Juke Box, is parkerized, green, all matching, head to foot. Not one speck of black or blue anywhere.
I learned a long time ago, 50 years as a collector, never say, never or always. When you do, it may show up the next day.

Rock-Ola didn't use three digit serial numbers on carbines they produced for the U.S. military as their first assigned serial number block began with #1,662,520 and ended with #1,762,519. Subsequent assigned serial number blocks were higher in number. M1 Carbine Serial Numbers

If you have a Rock-Ola with a three digit serial number it may be one of those made by James River Armory a few years ago. They bought the Rock-Ola name, had someone produce new receivers, used new Criterion barrels, some original parts, and began producing "Rock-Ola" M1 Carbines. I know, because I bought one a few weeks ago, s/n 374.



They evidently sold some receivers too as this example just sold on Gunbroker. It is one of the new receivers with an original Rock-Ola barrel installed by someone.

Now, as you said, "Never say never..." If you indeed have an original Rock-Ola with a 3-digit serial number, you have something that would be of enormous interest to collectors.

35W

[firebyprolong]

I’ve gotten a subdued blue before due to something I read about the Newton rifle factory. They would include a “ oiled wire wheel” polish to get a lo shine caustic blue. I had some rough actions and parts that need blued or parked and had them laying in the cabinet ready to go while I had the salts hot ready for a run of high polished parts. Needed to test the bath and figured why not, I ran those freshly bead blasted actions lightly across my high carbon wire wheel till they looked smooth then ran them though the tanks and blued them. Got a nice dark satin black that camouflaged a multitude of surface imperfections too deep to polish out. Looks really close to the color and finish I see in your pictures. If I think about it I’ll snap a picture tonight and post it.