Need a little help.

[Ed Barrett]

A friend of mine came to me the other day with a gun he picked up at a show. It's a 12 guage Paradox double. The last 12 inches of the barrels have some light rifleing. He knew I formed cases for some of the odd guns I've gotten over the years and wanted me to make some big game style loads for this gun. I found data ect. for loading the shells the only thing I have a problem is the all brass Mag-Tech 12 guage cases I picked up are supposed to take large rifle primers. What is the easy way to prime these cases. I tried a flat piece of steel with the primer on it placeing the case over it with a 4" dowel in it and tapping it. about one in 5 deforms the primer before it's seated. Have any of you worked with these Mag-Tech cases? None of the 209 primer stuff works either. I have some shells made up, with tripple 7 and round ball and conical ball, to try as soon a it's a pleasnt day weather wise at the range, but I would like a better way to prime cases.

[Buckshot]

...............Ed, I'll get around to using that paper you sent one of these days 8)!



The above is what I made up to de-and re-prime the Mag-Tech 32ga shotshells I was using for the Comblain. These were the old Berdan primed cases I'd altered to take 209's.



Like this, above.

Very similar to the Lee Loader priming deal. Turn a piece of steel to form a relief to just allow the case rim to fit and leave a pedestal about .005" high in the center. The rod on the right in the first photo is drilled on the end to set down over the 209 primer, as they stick up into the case as it's driven down over them.

You'll want to do the same, only make the hole big enough to clear the raised primer pocket inside the casehead. If you don't you'll probably mash the pocket down.

................Buckshot

[Frank46]

Ed, if the brain cells are still working the paradox you mentioned is used with both shot and lead bullets. The faint rifling you mention at the muzzle was intended to spin and stabilize a lead bullet. Not unlike a shotgun slug of today. There were molds that cast a specific lead bullet for these guns. Try looking in cartridges of the world maybe they can show a picture of what I'm trying to tell you. These bullets were pointed and extended out from the brass
12 guage shell. And were secured by a series of stab crimps to hold the bullet in place. Sounds like your buddy has latched on to a nice piece. Could you give any info regarding the marking on the shotgun. If you take the bbls off either on the underside of the barrels or the frame there should be some information regarding the load these guns were chambered for. Frank

[The Nyack Kid]

Ross Seyfried did an article in "Rifle" a few years back about the Holland and Holland Paradox and what it took to get it to shoot . I thought it was a great article.

[wills]

I saw one in Handloader, about getting it to shoot accurately, but I don’t think it addressed priming the cases.

[floodgate]

Ed:

On that 12-gauge priming problem, ask around for one of those old shotshell priming tools BGI , Union, Eureka, etc., used to make. They look like a cast iron nutcracker, with one leg having a big hole through it, recessed to take the case rim, and the other leg having a peg to seat the primer. I used to see them everywhere in the "You name it; $1.00 each" bins in antique shops and at gun shows. Here's catalog cuts of a couple of types. Someone here should have one to pass on to you.

floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

I do know that at least until recently RCBS made a 12 gauge reloading die set for use on the Rockchucker press. It wasn't cheep, but I was wondering if some arrangement of tooling could be adapted to decap and re-prime your shells from that.

[StarMetal]

From what I"m reading those shells take large pistol primers not large rifle. Now if they are deforming from trying to enter the primer hole try using a counterbore to break the edge of the hole more, but not alot. Rifle primers are a tad longer too. Try some large pistol primers and report back. Make sure you place the shell squarely overtop the primer before trying to seat them.

Joe

[gregg]

I'm with starmetal . light cut with a deburling tool.
Like removeing a crimp from a primer pocket.
Ohh the paper. My bottom never had it so good.
JUST JOKEING.... Its in a very safe place till I get to it.

[Ricochet]

Reckon a ball pein hammer'd drive 'em in there?

[drinks]

Ed;
The info in the catalog is wrong, the brass Mag tec cases use large pistol primers, these are .010" shorter than large rifle primers.
Several sources are not up to speed on primers, most manuals show .44-40 as large rifle primers and that is correct to about 2000, then Rem. at least, went to large pistol primers and never mentioned it.
Gotta watch these sneaky coyotes.

[Ed Barrett]

To try to answer all the question's;

Yes the mag tech scells do take large pistol primers.

the case is made very thin in the base, like the old baloon head cases, so I don't really want to take any metal off the case if possible.

The gun is a Holland and Holland British Paradox gun made about 1900 or so and has the initials RGS inlayed in sliver on the reciever.

I will try to find one of those pliers type primers for 12 Ga. shells. In the mean time I'm going to modify a pair of pliers into a primer.

The only problem I was having was seating the large pistol primers in the all brass cases.

Thanksfor the info.

[Frank46]

Ed, if of british make you should be able to see what information is on the underside of the bbls or the "table" which is the top of the frame where the bbls sit. I checked with a buddy and he agrees that at least some info regarding proof pressures and quite possibly the load itself may be there. Most double rifles show what bullet weight the gun was proofed or regulated for. As an aside, you may want to start haunting gun shows for some of the old alcan brass shotgun shells. I have five in 12 guage and a couple in 16 & 20 guage. Frank

[Ed Barrett]

How are the Alcans different from the Mag-tech cases?

[Frank46]

Ed,will dig them out and describe them as best I can later today. Much heavier construction
and solid base off the top of my head, and I too suffer from CRS. Frank

[G50-70]

Ed:
RCBS (1.800.533.5000) makes an uncataloged 12 ga shell holder for brass shells. You can order one direct for about $20 or so. I use mine with my Rockchucker to seat large pistol primers in the Mag Tec shells and it works great.
Gary

[versifier]

Ed, could you possibly please perchance to post a picture of the paradox that we people might percieve its perfection as due to their paucity we seldom have the pleasure of perusal?

[9.3X62AL]

I hereby pronounce Versifier as the January 2006 Alliteration Champion. I don't think the late Spiro Agnew could even approach that last posting text on his best day with a following wind.

[Buckshot]

Ed, could you possibly please perchance to post a picture of the paradox that we people might percieve its perfection as due to their paucity we seldom have the pleasure of perusal?

.................I'm with Deputy Al. I don't have the foffiest either

...............Buckshot

[versifier]

Sometimes it simply slips out. Still would like to see some snapshots.