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Thread: Slightly out of headspace .223 rounds: How bad is it?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master VariableRecall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Weeellll ... chambers, sizers and gages all have size tolerances and resizing IS the normal first step of reloading, isn't it? And each of us should make ammo according to our own needs, right?

    The question before us here is, is it better to size to fit a gage (which itself has a size tolerance so it's unlikely to exactly match our chamber) or precisely resize to fit our own rifle for the finest possible accuracy. Those who buy or reload ammo by the case are range bangers so meticulous hand loading won't be worth the time it takes to do it.

    Bottom line, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' about using a plunker case gage. Plunkers are useful tools to replicate factory ammo and everyone should size cases for his own desires; bulk reloads or truly precise handloads. BUT, I believe we should understand what we're doing and why we're doing it.
    I'm just looking to make sure that all my ammo runs smoothly in my rifle. I'm glad to finally make full use of my Lee die's value. As of now, with my .223 die tuned properly, everything is plunking just fine, and all my rounds are up to spec.

    I did in fact sort ALL of the ammunition that I have loaded so far, and it turns out that almost all of my loaded rounds were slightly out of spec. There were a couple that were too far out of spec for comfort, so I pulled them down to size them properly. However, I believe all of my previously loaded rounds so far are going to work just fine, but now I know which magazines have somewhat wonky rounds.Either way, I'll have an opportunity to re-size them again.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    In all my years of reloading never felt the need for a case gauge! Especially for the AR platform! I go by the old rule all semi-auto cartridges get full length sizing! If you set the brass to factory specs you should never have a headspace problem with your reloads! Keep within COAL specs!

  3. #23
    Boolit Master slim1836's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
    In all my years of reloading never felt the need for a case gauge! Especially for the AR platform! I go by the old rule all semi-auto cartridges get full length sizing! If you set the brass to factory specs you should never have a headspace problem with your reloads! Keep within COAL specs!
    I do the same. If's that's just an old wives tale I hope someone chimes in.

    Slim
    JUST GOTTA LOVE THIS JOINT.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by slim1836 View Post
    I do the same. If's that's just an old wives tale I hope someone chimes in.

    Slim
    Like most things in life the results achieve are related to the effort you put in. The standard die manufacturers method of die adjustments is functional for 99+% of users. That being said, functional and ideal are somewhat different. Functional is just that. They will safely function in all firearms. Ideal means (in addition to being functional) shoulder setback is controlled to provide maximum case life.

    Personally I use either RCBS case mics or the Stoney Point/Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Comparators to control shoulder setback for every bottleneck chamber I own. In bolt guns I run .001" to .002" shoulder clearance. In semi-auto's it's .002" to .003". That is a little tighter than most recommend but I anneal to spring back is very consistent. Belted cases and rimmed cases are sized to the shoulder and not the rim or belt.

    https://mssblog.com/2016/02/19/reloa...0the%20minimum.

    http://www.floridareloading.com/inde...tleneck-cases/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-09-2022 at 12:35 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    - Wayne Dyer

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    M-Tecs
    Yep for you that may work! But unless your trying to milk every mili meter of accuracy out of your ammo rifle combination it's not needed. As you said for 99% of reloaders/shooters setting the case back to work in most rifles is fine. Cause 99% of shooters are not nor do they need minute of hair accuracy and are not competitive shooters. We just love shooting !

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I started loading for an AR about 20 years ago and was not anything like new to reloading. Doing what I thought best I still had a couple cases that got stuck out of battery. I found a Lyman case gage and checked different factory rounds as well as reloads that worked properly and started there.

    The case gage might not be a highly technical tool, but it is a cheap and safe way to get started. I have a Hornady Case Comparator but still use a case cage and recommend one.

    Dave

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I’ve not seen a 5.56 chamber/throat that would mark rifling on a bullet at any reasonable length. What brand barrel have you got? I’m just curious.

    I can’t recall the brand of the tool I use to measure how far I’ve moved the shoulder, maybe whidden. It’s a cylinder that you unscrew and drop the case in, then screw it together, note the measurement, size the case, measure again and observe the difference. It’s pretty cool for getting dies setup.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post

    I can’t recall the brand of the tool I use to measure how far I’ve moved the shoulder, maybe whidden. It’s a cylinder that you unscrew and drop the case in, then screw it together, note the measurement, size the case, measure again and observe the difference. It’s pretty cool for getting dies setup.
    Mo Defina made the first that I was aware of. I purchased a couple at Camp Perry in 1992. Whidden makes one as does RCBS. All of them are great tools for properly setting up a die and maximizing brass life.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
    M-Tecs
    Yep for you that may work! But unless your trying to milk every mili meter of accuracy out of your ammo rifle combination it's not needed. As you said for 99% of reloaders/shooters setting the case back to work in most rifles is fine. Cause 99% of shooters are not nor do they need minute of hair accuracy and are not competitive shooters. We just love shooting !
    Since you love shooting so much I am surprised you are not trying to maximize case life?
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    You set your die to give proper H.S. for your gun. The only purpose of H.S. is to keep the case head VERY close to the bolt surface. The actual number is irrelevant. Same with COAL.
    Whatever!

  11. #31
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    There's an old practice of only screwing a full length sizing die down till it produces an acceptable length cartridge for your rifle.

    If you read the press and die instructions, they say not to do this, though. They want the die to barely kiss the shellholder when the press closes all the way.

    Why?

    Slop in the press joints. It can cause presses to "Squish" the case a little different with each stroke if you aren't touching the shellholder. This leaves very inconsistently sized cases. 0.010" doesn't sound like much, but it may as well be a mile too long when it sticks in your chamber.

    The issue with trying to avoid over working your brass is that each rifle is a little different, and some have longer chambers than others. In this case, Redding makes a set of shell holders that allows something like 0-0.020" additional depth for setting up cartridges for individual rifles. This way, you can still operate the FL die correctly, yet only size the minimum for your gun. So handy.

    On the other hand, range brass is its own beast. I ended up using "Small base" dies on range brass 223 and 308 because some of the chambers were either fluted or super roomy. Standard FL dies could not resize the diameter enough, and consequently ended up with either dies badly jammed with shells or rounds that would not chamber even after FL sizing.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckjohn View Post
    There's an old practice of only screwing a full length sizing die down till it produces an acceptable length cartridge for your rifle.

    If you read the press and die instructions, they say not to do this, though. They want the die to barely kiss the shellholder when the press closes all the way.

    Why?

    Slop in the press joints. It can cause presses to "Squish" the case a little different with each stroke if you aren't touching the shellholder. This leaves very inconsistently sized cases. 0.010" doesn't sound like much, but it may as well be a mile too long when it sticks in your chamber.

    The issue with trying to avoid over working your brass is that each rifle is a little different, and some have longer chambers than others. In this case, Redding makes a set of shell holders that allows something like 0-0.020" additional depth for setting up cartridges for individual rifles. This way, you can still operate the FL die correctly, yet only size the minimum for your gun. So handy.
    Is that from actual experience or just what you read????????? The instruction that come with the dies are for the lowest knowledge users to ensure the ammunition will function in all SAAMI chambers. Nothing more.

    In my experience and many others that actually measure the force required to size the case is more than adequate to overcome any "slop" that the press may have. If you have a worn out of round pivot pin that is rotating you could have an issue but short of that it's not happening.

    How do I know this? Since the mid 80's I have averaged loading 6,000 rounds of bottleneck cases a year. Over the years I have loaded on RCBS Juniors, Rockchuckers, RCBS A2's, RCBS A4's, CH Champion press, Herters presses, Lyman turrets, a Forster Co-Ax Loading Press, Dillon a Dillon 450, 550's, 650's, RL 1000 and Super 1050's. Until I started annealing case spring back and expander ball pullout would produce up to .004" shoulder variations. That happen regardless if the die contacted the shell holder or not. With annealing I hold a .001" with or without die contact. By trade I am a machinist/toolmaker and I have been measure actual shoulder length since I start forming 357 Herrett brass in the late 70's.

    As to sticking in the chamber that doesn't happen due to shoulder length. If the shoulder is long you will feel it on chambering in a bolt gun. If you force it you are risking bolt lug galling but it will still extract. If the radial diameter is large you can stick it the same as lack of lube when sizing. The effect is known as a self locking taper.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-12-2022 at 08:24 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    A note on adjusting an FL sizer to give any specific dimension off the shoulder of a bottle neck case: The fired cases have already shrunk back a thou or two so, for best case life, all we really need to do is keep the shoulders where we find them.

    The big thing is, by luck of the draw, an individual's rifle may have a largish chamber and he may buy a smallish FL die; both will be within "factory tolerance". But, if he follows the written instructions and jams his cases into his die as far as it will go he will deliver maximum case stretch with every cycle.

    Moral of the story: Fit your cases to your chamber, not a book!

    I once read a post from a guy who wanted to sell his .243 because "everyone knew" that cartridge stretched cases a lot. He "knew" it couldn't be him because he always followed the die maker's instructions exactly. I thought, "No sir, your .243's chamber isn't causing your excessive case stretching, it's YOU!"

    Stipulation: I'm a traditional bolt action rifleman and my reloading is for highest safe velocity for the cartridge with best accuracy and I fire modest amounts of ammo. I don't do high volume autoloader "spray" shooting at all so there's no Dillon on my bench.

    I suggest (experienced) reloaders should load according to what they need, not what other people need. Following factory die instructions makes factory ammunition for the masses but I reload for my own rifles so I follow my own die "instructions" and make the best ammo I can for each of my rifles, not for everyone else's.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master VariableRecall's Avatar
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    One somewhat awkward thing I've yet to mention is that I've never trimmed ANY of my reloaded .223 brass yet. I have tools to trim them, but not tools that will do the job swiftly and easily. Is that a bad thing?

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    In an earlier post I talked about a case gage, I use them but understand that they are not a cure all. I have a rebarreled Savage in 308 that seems to have a tight chamber. A set of dies and a shell holder are dedicated to that rifle. I tried another set of dies that showed the same according to the gage. That is where I ran into the self locking taper that M-Tecs described. That is another reason I refuse to load ammo for someone else.

    M-Tecs, How often do you anneal your cases ? I anneal my 303 Brit. after maybe 3 firings because of the large chamber neck.

    1hole, I know what you mean about chamber size. I have a Savage 110 that has been kicked around the extended family for about 40 years to whoever needed a deer rifle. It was a 270 that had a very tight chamber, even had trouble finding a set of dies that worked. I ended up with it again a few years ago. It is now a long action 308 with a heavy barrel, solved that problem.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check