rifle or handgun...

[BunkTheory]

Im just curious that the first instinct is to put out "carry a shotgun/rifle/bearspray" when someone with a bit of nerve issues in wrists and hands talks about a handgun for bear defense.

Are these folks who have actually managed to go around the back 40 all day with a long gun held in their hands and managed to cut trees, pick berries, enjoy life? Or are they folks who realized that the long gun gets in the way non stop and prevents them from doing most things unless its put on the ground or slung over the back... and then is impossible to get out in a hurry

[Scrounge]

Im just curious that the first instinct is to put out "carry a shotgun/rifle/bearspray" when someone with a bit of nerve issues in wrists and hands talks about a handgun for bear defense.

Are these folks who have actually managed to go around the back 40 all day with a long gun held in their hands and managed to cut trees, pick berries, enjoy life? Or are they folks who realized that the long gun gets in the way non stop and prevents them from doing most things unless its put on the ground or slung over the back... and then is impossible to get out in a hurry

There is this gadget called a sling that lets you carry a long gun and leave your hands free to do other things until or unless you need the weapon. Particularly when you say you have some trouble with .38 special, which is not on anyone's bear list that I'm aware of, and .357 Mag, which can be, at least for black bears, and is talking going to a .44 Mag. If you can't reliably hold and shoot it, what makes you think it would work? Will a .44 Mag guarantee one-shot kills on a bear? Maybe in good strong hands. If you lack good strong hands, get what you want, and hope you never need to use it on a bear close up. The advise was free. Value it as you will. It's your life.

Bill

[centershot]

Depends. Here in western NY black bears are the only ones you'll ever see. These are timid creatures and want nothing to do with people. In my few encounters with them a simple shout and wave of my arms is all I needed to shoo them out of the area. When I am woods-bumming I carry a .357 carbine, because that's what I like to carry. A handgun of the same or larger caliber would suffice.

If I were in grizzly country I'd probably opt for a shot-barrelled, lightweight 12 ga. pump gun (pick your flavor) loaded with Brenneke's. No way I'm going to trust my ability to stop a charging grizzly with a handgun!

P.S. Bill is right about the sling, of course!

[farmbif]

ive never been in situation where I would need protection from brown bear.
but I shoot a 357 and 44 mag revolvers quite a bit as well as a g22 and don't mess around with really weak loads on the verge of getting stuck in a barrel and when it comes right down to it I think I like the idea of 15 shots at the ready compared to 6. maybe a semi auto in 10mm would offer good protection if your well practiced with the recoil and keeping follow up shots on target.
but there are folks on this site that are experts and it always interests me what real world experiences others have to share

[white eagle]

with all these encounters with bears everyone is having hope that this continues with me this next months fall bear season
I can tell you what I will use

[dverna]

No way I can carry a long gun and "work" on my property.

I doubt a black bear will stalk you like a cougar would and mount a surprise attack. Don't know where you live of if you are dealing with bears used to humans and foraging near a city dump or similar situation. But "wild" bears are eager to get as far way from you as possible unless you stumble in between a sow and her cub(s). There is little to no danger from them.

If you want to get a .44 mag pistol go for it. Load it down for practice loads and use full (fuller?) power loads for bear defense. If you have to shoot a bear, your hand/wrist numbness is not going to affect you unless you drop the gun.

Lastly bears vary by area. Where I live 300 lbs is a large bear most are 125-175 lbs. When dressed out they look like a human. I tend to sway more to Farmbif's way of thinking. Bears I will encounter are not aggressive or large, so I would rather have 15 shots of a round I can handle easily than 6 in a caliber I cannot. Like I said in the other thread, assuming I am not on top of the bear, the first is going into the ground, and I should not need anymore; but if I do....

[BamaNapper]

If I lived where there was a significant probability of a dangerous animal attack and had to work in the woods I'd take a well-armed companion. And as the joke goes, it'll be someone who runs slower than me.

Anyway, I assume the answer is: carry whatever you're comfortable with. Nobody is going to carry a long gun when they're driving fence posts or clearing brush, but it might not hurt to have one on the 4-wheeler. And I'm not going to carry a 500 mag all day on the off chance that a black bear charges, when my biggest threat would probably be a bothersome snake. I grew up in northern WI and ran into black bears a few times. It was an adrenalin rush, but never threatening. Not sure what I'd do if I lived where there were large dangerous creatures.

[Ural Driver]

You don't say where you are or where these encounters might happen. But IMHO, anything big enough to eat me warrants a substantial deterrent. I do carry large caliber sidearms. But, if I thought there was a good chance of a bear encounter, my choice would be to add the aforementioned quick handling 12 ga. with proper ammunition. If your going to be doing manual labor I would take along a friend (similarly equipped) or at least a dog as an early warning alarm. Cutting timber is seldom a one man job. So, bears aside, having a second person along is just a safety thing. In my world, tree cutting involves a chainsaw which by itself should deter any (semi aware) critter....or human. The berry picking scenario is more problematic. Your more likely to encounter a berry loving bruin in those areas then pretty much anywhere else. That's a place where a slung shotgun would be in order.
Whatever your choice, and I cannot stress this part strongly enough, practice, practice, practice with the exact equipment you are taking afield. Find or build something that is comfortable and literally wear it around the house while doing chores. When outdoors, place it nearby and practice getting it into action. Do these things until it becomes an extension of your body.
You'll know your ready when you can channel Lucas McCain .......

[Dom]

We have wolfs, black bears & grizzly bears to contend with. I am never with out bear spray, always, plus a fire arm. At least a 44 mag with heavy cast bullets ( 280 or 310gr ). But far prefer a shotgun. I know those locally who have had to use deadly force on wolfs & bears. This is no joke in this area.

[444ttd]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...and-rear-sling

https://gunnewsdaily.com/best-shotgu...-home-defense/

[muskeg13]

I doubt a black bear will stalk you like a cougar would and mount a surprise attack.

WRONG! For me, the "best" defense is an easily carried pistol of moderate power, something I'm very familiar with and is readily available. When venturing into an area where a bear encounter is likely, I prefer a M1911 .45 ACP with 230-250 gr lead boolits loaded to 800-850 FPS in a comfortable shoulder holster. Carrying a long gun around all of the time, even with a sling, is impractical. Where I live, I might run into a (brown or black) bear anytime I leave the house, but an actual encounter is rare. Around the house, I have weapons available in various spots, but don't walk around packin iron unless I've seen a bear or fresh tracks or scat. There's a reason Federal and State wildlife officials recommend playing dead with a brown bear, but to fight back with every means possible if attacked by a black bear. An attacking blackie is fixin to eat you!

Lone, predatory black bears responsible for most human attacks
Anchorage Daily News, Doug O'Harra, May 11, 2011, Updated: May 31, 2016

Most fatal attacks by North American black bears during the past century were conducted by lone, male animals that stalked and then killed their human victims as prey, according to a new study by the world's top authority on what triggers bear attacks.

Though black bears rarely kill or seriously injure people, when they do, it's most often the result of predatory behavior by males inside their wilderness home ranges and not by females protecting cubs or animals defending a carcass, said Dr. Stephen Herrero, professor emeritus at the University of Calgary and author of the classic Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance.

"Most fatal black bear attacks were predatory and all fatal attacks were carried out by a single bear," Herrero said in a U-Cal story. "With training, people can learn to recognize the behavior of a bear that is considering them as prey and deter an attack by taking aggressive action such as fighting back."

The study examined 59 fatal encounters between black bears and humans in Alaska, Canada and the Lower 48 during the 110 years ending in 2009. Some 88 percent of the 63 deaths were caused by a bear that exhibited predatory behavior, and 92 percent of these predatory black bears were male.

Of the total fatalities, five occurred in Alaska and 44 in Canada, with only 14 spread among the Lower 48 states -- including several states with thousands of black bears and millions of residents.

"There were 3.5 times as many fatal attacks in Canada and Alaska, but there were only 1.75 times as many black bears and much less human contact (due to fewer people in black bear habitat) for black bears in Canada and Alaska," wrote Herrero and four other authors.

We speculate that many black bears in Canada and Alaska had less contact with people because the human population is about 10 percent of the population in the Lower 48 states. Most black bear populations in Canada had far less hunting pressure. Also many black bears in Canada or Alaska existed in less productive and less diverse habitat with periodic food stress, perhaps predisposing some bears to consider people as prey. All, some, or none of the foregoing factors may have contributed to the greater proportion of fatal attacks in Canada and Alaska versus the Lower 48 states.

Still, the scientists cautioned, the risk of being attacked by non-captive, free-roaming black bears in the wild (or even the backyards of human settlements) of North America remains exceedingly small -- even in Alaska or Canada.

"Each year, millions of interactions between people and black bears occur without any injury to a person, although by 2 years of age most black bears have the physical capacity to kill a person," they wrote.

Reducing this risk even further might hinge on recognizing predatory behavior by the animals when it happens, and then taking other reasonable precautions when traveling or living in black bear territory, they said.

Examining 59 attacks across 110 years
The study — Fatal Attacks by American Black Bear on People: 1900–2009 — appeared this week in the prestigious peer-reviewed journal published by the Wildlife Society. Over the past 40 years, Herrero, the lead author, pioneered the practice of applying biological and forensic insight to investigate why black and brown bears attack, maul and sometimes kill people in North America. His current coauthors were Canadian scientist Andrew Higgins, James Cardoza and Laura Hajduk with the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife, and bear biologist Tom Smith of Brigham Young University. Smith is a former Alaskan biologist who conducted ground-breaking research into bear encounters in Katmai National Park.

"Our findings raise some important new insights that can be used to better understand the cause of attacks and how they can be avoided in both the front and backcountry," Herrero said.

The study results undercut several assumptions about what poses risks in black bear country.

"In particular, the common belief that surprising a mother bear with cubs is the most dangerous kind of black bear encounter is inaccurate," Herrero said. "Instead, lone male black bears hunting people as a potential source of food are a greater cause of deadly maulings and related predatory attempts."

The authors did find that the incremental increase in human population correlated with the increase in fatal attacks -- some 86 percent of the fatalities have occurred since 1960.

"We suspect it is because there are more people pursuing recreational and commercial activities in black bear habitat," Herrero said in the story. "Similarly, we don't know exactly why there have been more attacks in Canada and Alaska, but we speculate that it could be because bears in those areas are living in less productive habitat with periodic food stress, which may predispose some bears to consider people as prey."

Other insights:

No fatal attacks involved more than one bear, and almost all were adult males.
Bears that have previously killed are most likely to act aggressively again.
People traveling or camping alone were the mostly likely victims — almost 70 percent of the fatalities involved single person. Only 9 percent of attacks occurred with more than 2 people present.
Human food and garbage tended to attract aggressive black bears and might increase the likelihood of a serious bear attack.
The victims were ranged from small children to old people. No single activity or region correlated with the fatal attacks. “The widespread geographic distribution of fatal attacks suggests that they may occur in a variety of bear habitats and bear population conditions,” the authors wrote. “Fatal attacks do not appear to be associated only with a specific black bear population, geographic area, or habitat.”
Fatal attacks were most numerous in August — when black bears are shifting into overdrive to put on weight for the winter. Most attacks occurred during the day, with about 60 percent in the backcountry and 40 percent closer to communities.
None of the victims used bear spray. “Nor was bear spray available for other party members to deter the attacking bear,” the authors wrote, adding: “Two studies of the effectiveness of bear spray that had capsaicin as its active ingredient demonstrated its effectiveness but noted possible interference with wind.”
Beware the bear that stalks in silence
Recognizing the difference between a predatory attack and defensive, fearful activity -- and possibly wielding a fresh can of bear spray -- may be the crux of protecting oneself against a fatal attack by a determined blackie. The authors wrote:



Potentially predatory approaches are typically silent, and may include stalking or other following, followed by a fast rush leading to contact. We know of incidents where a black bear behaved as if it were considering or carrying out a predatory attack and was deterred by people’s aggressive actions such as shouting, or hitting with rocks, fists, or sticks. Once predatory behavior is initiated it may persist for hours unless it is deterred.

Faced with this chilling, single-minded tableau, people should use "all possible deterrents such as bear spray, loud noises, fists, firearms, rocks, knives, or clubs," the authors wrote.

At the same time, if a black bear acts stressed or shows "defensive threat" behaviors -- swatting the ground, mounting short charges, clacking teeth, making huffing or growling noises -- it's much less likely to attack.

"A predatory attack is unlikely, which is counterintuitive to many people because the bear is acting aggressively," they said. "However, this aggression is defensive, and if the bear is given space it will likely leave."

The authors noted that brown bears behave much differently than black bears, and a significant proportion of fatal attacks or serious maulings that involved brown bears began with the bears acting defensively, including sows lashing out to protect cubs.

Still, the authors emphasized more than once that people face little risk from black bears, with uncounted millions of encounters ending with the bear fleeing or without the human ever knowing the bear was present. The vast majority of black bears want nothing to do with people. Given a North American population of 750,000 to 950,000 black bears, this lack of serious injuries is remarkable.

"Given the strength and opportunistic predation by black bears one can ask why bears do not prey on people more often," they wrote. "Part of the answer may be that bears that try to or do prey on people are usually killed and removed from a population's gene pool, decreasing the frequency of any genes the individual might have had that could contribute to predatory attacks on people."

[megasupermagnum]

63 fatal attacks in 110 years from black bear, 55 presumed predatory by that study.

I mean seriously, is there an animal more harmless than a black bear?

[BunkTheory]

Any of YOU guys ever actually tried to do the "wave and shout" advice on a bear that is 6.5 feet tall when it stands on its hind feet?

I TRIED that once.... hence my interest in a deeply penetrating round like a 44 magnum or 357

[M-Tecs]

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/han...#axzz72pKQpKJq

Bear Defense: Shocking Truth about Bear Spray & Guns

https://pistolwizard.com/studies/bears

[muskeg13]

Any of YOU guys ever actually tried to do the "wave and shout" advice on a bear that is 6.5 feet tall when it stands on its hind feet?

I TRIED that once.... hence my interest in a deeply penetrating round like a 44 magnum or 357

This really is a true story. I did once at the Kenai/Russian River confluence to shoo away an adult black bear harassing fishermen that had completely lost its fear of humans. A buddy and I had just exited the trail and gone into the water to avoid a pesky black bear menacing people on the trail when we heard a cry for help. We double-timed back up the trail and saw the bear threatening an elderly lady on a sand bar who had been knitting while her husband fished, backing her up to the point she was about to go into the river in her low quarter canvas shoes. My friend and I were both armed, he with a .357 Ruger SP-101 with 180gr cast boolits, and me with my trusty M1911 .45ACP with 250gr cast boolits. We ran in between the old lady and the bear, yelling and waving our arms and fishing poles to no avail. The hungry bear didn't care. We both drew our weapons and continued to yell, but the bear slowly advanced crouched down just a few feet away with its nose only a few inches off of the ground. Thoughts of having to justify discharging a firearm and shoot a bear in the middle of a crowded salmon stream crossed my mind when I remembered a story a "Sourdough" friend of mine had told me about kicking gravel in the face of a bear to break its attention and defuse the situation. This bear was so close, I didn't want to shoot unless it was to kill the bear, and I really didn't want that. As a last resort, with an impossible to miss sight picture on the bear's face and being backed-up by my friend, I yelled one more time and kicked gravel in the bear's face. It worked!! The bear decided we weren't worth the effort, stopped advancing, grunted, raised itself up, and then turned around and walked back into the brush. Some people pooh-pooh pistols for bear defense and don't believe anything less than a hand cannon is worth strapping on, but let me tell you, I was mighty pleased to have an M1911 in my hand that morning!

Later the same day, a family of 5 brown bears came marauding down the river in search of salmon stringers and pick-a-nick baskets. They stampeded scores of fishermen ahead of them. Soon, a bear alert siren was sounded downstream, indicating the exit in that direction was cut off by another bear or group of bears. About 40-50 scared fishermen, women and kids were now caught between two groups of bears. My friend and I were pissed because we were ready to leave, but couldn't now. Then I noticed something strange. Everywhere my friend and I walked, we were followed by a large group of people. They were unarmed, but knew we were, and were sticking close to us for protection. Eventually, both groups of bears stole and ate enough salmon to satisfy themselves and got tired of scaring tourists and fishermen, retreated back into the bushes the way they came, allowing us the chance to leave and get a beer and burger at Gwinn's Lodge.

Several days later, I read that Fish and Game had killed a nuisance black bear where we'd been fishing.

[muskeg13]

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/han...#axzz72pKQpKJq

Bear Defense: Shocking Truth about Bear Spray & Guns

https://pistolwizard.com/studies/bears

Good reading! Thanks. I remember several of the stories from local news clips. What little faith I had in bear spray was shattered at the end of a camping trip a few years ago. Five of us were bored, on the beach waiting for the charter float plane to come pick us up at the end of a week long camping trip in a remote area. It was decided to "test" several cans of fairly expensive bear spray to see how far they shot and how long the stream would last. The results were very disappointing. From cans as large as wasp spray, the streams only reached out about 5 yards and only for a few seconds! The light wind then blew the "cloud" back at us, incapacitating the intrepid testers for several minutes. Actual cans of wasp/hornet spray would probably be more effective. It's little wonder that many Alaskans consider bear spray to just be Ursine Tabasco.

[Randy Bohannon]

You what has little bells and smells like peppers ? Grizzly poop.

[John Van Gelder]

muskeg 13 has pretty well summed it up. Folks who are only occasional travelers in the forest seem to have the most opinions. At the end of the day you will have a much better chance of getting hit by lightening or a car than being attacked by a large predator. As far as the choice of hand guns the best choice is what you can reliably shoot well under stressful conditions. I live in the mountains, and am in the forest every day, I have four black bears that frequent my property, some summers I have as many as 12 different bears, the majority of those are females with cubs. I have never had a problem with the bears. I did have one that acquired a taste for my horse feed and got to be such a nuisance that I felt that he might become a risk to me or my livestock. One round of 9mm with a 125 gr. cast bullet did the job nicely. I lived in Alaska from 1972 until I retired from the Alaska State Troopers, and moved south in 1995. I see more black bears at my place here than I did in Alaska. I used to camp out hunting and fishing and never had a problem with a bear during my entire time in Alaska. Over time I have taken several bears, with a number of different hand guns .45ACP, .357 magnum, and .45 Colt, and most recently 9mm. All of which worked just fine.

For some reason people are afraid of bears for no good reason, they are very intelligent, interesting animals, they deserve our respect, a 150# black bear can kill you as easily as a 300# grizzly. I find huge blown down trees out in the forest casually moved out of the way to expose the bugs underneath.

More than likely if you are attacked by a bear you have done something wrong.

There is also a thread on this forum .. Trail Guns, some good information there.

H

[Soundguy]

There is this gadget called a sling that lets you carry a long gun and leave your hands free to do other things until or unless you need the weapon. Particularly when you say you have some trouble with .38 special, which is not on anyone's bear list that I'm aware of, and .357 Mag, which can be, at least for black bears, and is talking going to a .44 Mag. If you can't reliably hold and shoot it, what makes you think it would work? Will a .44 Mag guarantee one-shot kills on a bear? Maybe in good strong hands. If you lack good strong hands, get what you want, and hope you never need to use it on a bear close up. The advise was free. Value it as you will. It's your life.

Bill

Agreed.. especially a front 1 point sling on a bungi. it can hold a carbine right to the chest but let you point and shoot with less action than drawing a revolver from a holster. I have seen these for big revolver / hunting revolvers too.

[downzero]

When I hike, I carry a handgun. When 2 legged critters are the likely thing I may encounter, it's usually a 9mm semi automatic loaded with some sort of hollow points, typically the Federal HST.

If 4 legged critters may be a problem, I carry a revolver with some kind of magnum level load, whether it's a 357 Magnum with Keith bullets or a 45 Colt with a Ruger-only load under a 300 grain bullet.

I would not want to fight a bear off with either one, but if I have to choose, it's going to be a powerful revolver, not any kind of automatic. 15 rounds of .40 isn't going to do you any good if it can't penetrate deep enough to hit something that will stop the animal from eating you.

Carrying a long gun in the woods is not happening unless I'm hunting, and even then, I will have a revolver with me.