50-70 Info?

[jlutz]

Hi All. I’m new to BPCR and in fact just picked up my first rifle at auction. It was listed as a “European 50-70” without any other info. I’d appreciate any info (manufacturer, age etc.) that anyone can provide. I haven’t slugged the barrel but calipers show approx 12mm lands and 13mm grooves. The tang markings are difficult to make out in the photo but appear to read “Remington Ilion NY USA, PAT May __ Nov 15th 1864 April 17th 1866”.

It was suggested on FB that it may be a Swedish 12.7x44R. If that’s the case I have questions about the possibility of using 50-70 brass and bullets. As far as I can tell, it chambers and ejects 50-70 brass appropriately. The close up of the closed action is with a casing inside. As I mentioned, I know very little about BPCR so I very much any help!

[Ajohns]

It's a Remington Rolling Block, but beyond that, I really have no info.
Someone here for sure will. It maybe that you need to do a chamber cast to see exactly what it is. I like what I'm seeing though! Looks good!

[KenH]

You can read a lot about the Swedish Rolling Block here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/arc...p/t-53819.html

Since the 50-70 drops into the chamber easy it might not be a 12.7X44. To covert my 12.7X44 Rolling Blocks to 50-70 I had to use a 50-70 reamer to ream chamber a bit, and turn the rim diameter a tad larger. It's not hard to do.

[Nobade]

Chamber cast before anything else. Once you know what you have then you can go about making ammo for it.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've heard of these conversions to 50/70 BUT the bore dimensions are wrong. The 12.7x44R has a bore 0.508"/0.492", while the 50/70 is 0.510"/0.500".

They shoot well with the correct boolit. Mine is all original and I make brass from 348 Winchester and fireform.

[Dutchman]

Your rifle is a Swedish Carl Gustaf m/1867 with one of the Remington actions. The caliber originally 12,17x42R rim fire but many were converted to center fire and subsequently called 12,7x44R.

Chamber dimensions of these rifles can vary due to 19th century machining tolerances.

If you say a .50-70 Gov't case fits fine then its possible the chamber has been reamed with a .50-70 chambering reamer. This is not uncommon. The best evidence is to inspect the chamber and rim recess for evidence of being freshly cut with a sharp reamer. The metal will be much shinier than other parts of the rifle. If the metal is dark with age then I'd say it was not re-chambered with a .50-70 reamer.

The problem you face right now before you shoot this rifle is chamber LENGTH. Is the chamber cut for .50-70 or 12,7x44R? Chamber length is very important in that you do NOT put a loaded cartridge in the chamber that requires even a tiny bit of FORCE to seat and close the breechblock. With these rifles you need to be able to freely chamber a loaded cartridge with no RESISTANCE closing the breechblock.

Why? you may ask.... There needs to be adequate clearance for the case neck to expand and release the bullet when fired. If there is inadequate clearance you many have greatly increased PRESSURE when fired. Why is that a big deal you ask? There is very limited gas escape features in the rolling block. You MUST WEAR SAFETY GLASSES when shooting these rifles. Your FACE is right behind where all the action is taking place when you pull the trigger.

That is NOT a casehead separation. That's the result of what I just explained to you. The loaded cartridge was too long for this rifle and the bullet was pushed into the leade (rifling) with some force required. Thumb force. There was no room for the case mouth to release the bullet and the pressure in the cartridge when someplace other than pushing the bullet out. It broke the cartridge case completely. Fortunately I had shooting glasses on. I was wearing a ball cap and could feel the puff of gas pressure go upward from the breechblock and hit the underside of my hat bill. Lesson learned the hard way. Pay attention!! Loaded cartridges must freely chamber.









I used a pin gauge at the muzzle to determine land diameter and a telescoping gauge to measure groove diameter. In my rifle, which is a Carl Gustaf made action the dimensions are .477" land and .500" groove. I've shot cast bullets up to .512" but have settled at .510". Fact is just about any bullet from .500" to .510" will work including muzzle loading bullets (Lyman Great Plains for one). I've loaded Ffg blackpowder and smokeless to include Unique and 5744 with 5744 being my preferred powder with 350 gr cast bullets. The original Swedish loading was a 345 gr hollow base bullet with 75 grs blackpowder. You can shoot 450 gr bullets intended for the .50-70 Gov't but in my opinion that's too heavy. Recommended is 350 gr. Velocity will be around 1,350 fps. These rifles can be quite accurate but the "express" sights on them leave much to be desired.

I've disassembled my rifle to include removing the barrel to clean and inspect every part and reassembled it and lubricated using Tetra lube. I've had a couple dozen of these rifles pass through my hands in the last 21 years leaving me now with one 12,7mm rifle and one 8x58R rifle. I'm pretty familiar with them.

Trigger pull can be greatly improved with the installation of a single wire spring for the trigger return spring. They cost $10.



On my rifle the mainspring looked like it was chewed by beaver. I stoned the spring using coarse and fine oil stone and it took a long time as that mainspring is hard.







m/1867-74 caliber 12,7x44R

[Gewehr-Guy]

That's a lot of good info in Dutchmans post. One more thing to look for on your rifle , is the serial no is stamped on the left side of the barrel, and into the forend and grip of the stock. Your Remington made action will not be dated, but the assembly year was stamped on the right side forend and stock. Because yours was sold into the commercial market, some were refinished heavily and the wood dates are hard to read.

I have two Carl Gustafs with Remington actions, one sporterized and dated 1867, and an example thats nearly new looking dated 1868. Probably any rifles made after 1868 were completely of Swedish manufacture.

For my rifles with original chambers, I trimmed the brass back to 1.6 inches, and turned down the rim to .640, and had to file off a couple thousands just ahead of the rim to get them to chamber. I use Lyman's 515141 bullet , cast 30-1, and 23grs of 5744 powder. Use at your own risk, but seems like a mild load to me, with MY lot of powder.

Now here is where i use an odd loading technique. When my .515 dia. bullet is seated, they will not chamber. So I then run the LOADED cartridge back into the sizing die (with the de-capping stem removed) , until the cartridge chambers easily. Sometimes the greasy bullet moves forward in the case, but can be reseated with thumb pressure. This method works for me, and I have shot some nice groups with these rifles.

[jlutz]

Dutchman, thank you very much for taking time to write such a detailed post! Based on your description, I think it may not have been reamed for a 50-70 cartridge. I’m including a photo, but to my eye I don’t see evidence of fresh work on the chamber/rim recess. It does require slight thumb pressure to seat the cartridge, which I attributed to imprecise tolerances and the fact that it hasn’t been cleaned yet, but it sounds like that may not be the main factor. It sounds like I need to learn about chamber casting or perhaps find a 12.7x44R case to compare the fit. Assuming the 12.7x44R chambering, is there any harm in using 50-70 cases trimmed to the correct length? I understand the rim diameter to be slightly larger, but if the action closes and ejects the shells correctly is that problematic for other reasons?

In terms of use, what do you think an effect range is for these guns with the loads you suggested? Are they an option for silhouettes/long range bpcr shooting?

I’ll be doing more researching and measureing so I’m sure I’ll have more questions. Thanks again for your time and knowledge!

[jlutz]

Gewehr-Guy, thank you for the insight! The serial number on the barrel and butt plate looks to be 9374. Would that indicate an 1874 manufacture date?

[toot]

ROLLERS of any & all kinds are just the cats A$$!!

[Gewehr-Guy]

I wish I was able to post photos of these rifles, but only use an antique pre paid flip phone, and my kids say I'm not smart enough to post photos anyway. So I will try to describe the early models as best as I remember .

The first 10,000 were complete rifles made by Remington,with iron barrels, walnut stock and forend, with spring barrel band keepers, bands, nose cap, and buttplate similar too, or identical to the Civil War period hardware. One early example I have is serial 3260 ,
marked on left side of barrel, just below on the forend, on the action, and on the grip area and buttplate tang. One thing of interest, is that the action pins are retained by two screws, a feature apparently specified by Sweden.

The next 20,000 rifles were built on Remington supplied actions, with everything else built in Sweden. I believe they used a better quality steel in the barrels , and stocked them with birch wood, and used a different form of buttplate and screw retained barrel bands, and no iron nose cap. I think the Swedish assembled rifles started again at ser. # 1 , the number stamped on the left side of barrel , forend and grip, and buttplate. Also stamped on barrel bands, left side.

Now of interest, on my two examples of Swedish Remingtons, is the fact that the actions are not dated, like the Remington made one.
They are dated only on the forend and the grip, right side. Also, the breech block and hammer pins are retained by the familiar Remington style cross bar held with one screw. this leads me to believe that these were not contracted actions, but just stock off the shelf actions to fill an emergency order.

While I can't be sure of your date of manufacture, my rifle # 677 is dated 1867 on forend and wrist, and # 10190 is dated 1868. Yours is somewhere in between. Lots of fun shooting 153 year old rifles!

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I was fortunate to get an original 12.7x44R with a mirror bore. 50/70 just won't fit, although I have used 450/400 Nitro cases and they work perfectly.

[Dutchman]

A few thoughts....

Dating via serial numbers is not possible as each year the s/n started over at 1. Many/most barrels show the date on the underside of the barrel. At least this is true of Swedish made barrels. jlutz-- your barrel bears the crown/C of Carl Gustaf factory with inspector stamps so safe to say its Swedish-made.

Listing of different models of Swedish RB gets confusing real fast. There are so many and how they were originally can bear no relation to how they appear now in 2021 after rebuilds and alterations over the many years.



jlutz-- I'm glad you understood exactly what I meant by the chamber being freshly cut... or not. Yours has not been rechambered. Its hard for me to have an opinion as to your question about trimming back a .50-70 shorter. I just can't say when its an issue of safety without examining in-hand. You're going to have to proceed slowly and carefully. I use reformed .348 Winchester cases and while they are a little laborious to fabricate they work very well afterwards.

The pivot pin retaining started with the screws but by 1874 (memory) went back to the Remington style. Rifle actions dated 1874 are model 1867-74. The difference is rear sight calibrations were changed and the buttstock comb configuration was greatly improved by being higher than the original Remington 1867 buttstock comb.

Effective range is pretty well dictated by effective sights. The "express" sights suck canal water. I personally don't think these rifles are "long" range at all. The muzzle velocity starts at around 1,350 fps and with that big honking fat bullet the trajectory is rainbow. IMO 100 yds is a stretch. But under 100 yds is most effective. Not that it won't kill game over 100 yds but it'll be mostly a matter of hitting a game animal at longer ranges. Just my opinion.

I have one loaded original 12,17x42R rimfire in my collection. The RWS cases are German and no longer available. I have only 2 or 3 that I got from Sweden. They are marked 12,7x44R.

[toot]

OH, a FLIP PHONE? WELCOME TO THE CLUB!! they were made for us DINOSAURES!! no texting either, great!!

[jlutz]

Dutchman, thanks again for the information. I think my next step is to slug the bore and do a chamber cast. I was thinking originally it was a 50-70 so my brain was considering how to use those materials, but I’m just going to take my time and investigate how best to get it set up.

[jlutz]

Gewehr-guy, thank you! That’s interesting to know. This the oldest rifle I own and I’m really enjoying learning the history behind them.

[toot]

I've heard of these conversions to 50/70 BUT the bore dimensions are wrong. The 12.7x44R has a bore 0.508"/0.492", while the 50/70 is 0.510"/0.500".

They shoot well with the correct boolit. Mine is all original and I make brass from 348 Winchester and fireform.

do the 348 cases have a lot of blow back when you shoot them? and what do you use to reload then after shooting them with that bulge that they have in the case walls? and do they extract, or do you have to use a rod to knock them out after firing? and for the first shot fireforming them how do you go about doing that? thanking you, toot.

[bertus534]

I replaced the trigger spring with a leaf spring from a model racing car ,a set can be had for a few $$ through the internet there are already holes in them so you only have to enlarge the hole and cut to length


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-J330FN met Tapatalk

[toot]

no answer to my question? strange! I thought is was a question that I wanted to rely know about. so I could replicate it?

[missionary5155]

It's hunting season and some fellers are sitting in the rocks or bushes filling the freezer. Be patient...