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Thread: Cutting a "Jug Choke"

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Cutting a "Jug Choke"

    How to cut a “Jug Choke” - Thanks to CoyoteJoe for this info, revised from a 2009 post:

    Lot's of people ask how to “jug choke” a barrel.

    I won't try to do a how-to "tutorial" here because most of the actual work is done entirely by "feel". With experience you know how the tool is cutting and you learn to recognize the right feeling when it is working smoothly and what to do when it is not right. A brake cylinder hone or similar tool, used with Brownell’s DoDrill is guided by the bore itself and thus is always straight and centered to the bore. Don't even attempt this on a chromed bore!

    I use a home-made wooden tool holder similar to one used in black powder era "scrape cutter" rifling machines, except that it is rotated, rather than drawn lengthwise through the bore. This permits a longer cut about 4 inches long. This gives much better results than a typical automotive brake cylinder hone which is only about 1-1/2 to 2 inches long.

    The tool must be able to enter the bore without cutting, have its' cutter elevated to firm contact while cutting, then retracted to leave the bore without further cutting. A thin, "L" shaped piece of flat stock, I call "the adjuster", is tapered in thickness for most of its' length. It sits under the cutter, between the cutter and the backing. When removed the cutter retracts to enter into or be removed from the bore. Once the tool in in place and cutting is to begin, I insert the L shape adjuster to raise the cutter until you feel firm resistance, then by rotating the tool it will begin to cut. After just a few rotations the cutter will be loaded up with cuttings and to remove and clean it I just slip out the adjuster. After cleaning the chips off the tool and oiling the bore, the tool is slipped back into place, the adjuster reinserted to the point of firm resistance, the tool is cranked another dozen or so turns, then again removed and cleaned. As the recess deepens the adjuster moves farther inward to keep the cutter cutting.

    Oil hardening tool steel is purchased in soft condition to be easily cut with a hacksaw and filed to shape. The cutter is then heated to a uniform bright red and quickly quenched to be glass hard. Then it is stoned to a very smooth and sharp cutting edge with just a bit of draft to put the pressure on the leading edge. A common problem is was that the cutter may tend to warp when heated and quenched. While you can use a torch, a small forge will heat the full length of the blade without warping. The cutter must be very sharp, very hard so as to remain sharp and must fit into the backer very tightly and set on the center line of the bore. When your tool is working properly the cuttings from the roughing cuts will resemble wood shavings produced with a sharp scraper.

    It is important that the cutter fit very tightly into the slot in the backing, because any "wiggle room" will cause chattering. Keep the cutting edge sharp, use lots of cutting oil, take it slowly, removing and cleaning the cutter frequently, go real easy using a light touch on the finish cuts and it's a snap.

    While turning the cutter apply slight pressure to keep the tool against the stop. On finishing cuts you can let it wonder a wee bit, maybe 1/8 to 3/16 inch in and out, which seems to create a smoother recess without deep scratches. Finish cuts take longer than the roughing cuts but remove very little material, maybe a couple of thousandths, just enough to get to the bottom of any deep scratches. If the tool is kept sharp, well oiled and frequently cleaned of chips there just won't be any really deep scratches. Some people use a Brownells barrel hone for final finishing, but a sharp, well oiled and lightly handled cutter leaves a surface smoother than the Brownell’s hone. It's all in the touch.

    The old standard for 12 gauge full choke in black powder days was .040" constriction. Modern guns and loads don't need that much constriction, but with muzzleloaders we are duplicating the old loadings. In modern cartridge guns using modern loads with plastic shot cups I consider improved cylinder to be the most useful all-round choke. Just enough choke effect to make patterns round and uniform with dense center while still giving a wide spread with well-filled edges which are easy to hit flying birds with. That only requires about .010" constriction so it actually cuts only .005" deep. Even the thinnest antique barrel wall can stand that. Full choke requires .040" of constriction so the recess is .020" deep cannot be done safely if the barrel walls are thinner than .050", but, fortunately very few are. To restore a useful game choke on a cut-off cylinder bore, modern cartridge gun to be used with plastic shot cups, only 0.010 depth of cut is necessary for about 0.020” constriction. The only way to know for sure is by shooting test patterns, but any constriction improves the pattern otherwise produced from a cylinder bore.

    The beauty of a jug choked muzzleloader is that it loads as easily as a cylinder bore.
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    Boolit Master



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    I think I understand how the tool work - But boy, a picture would be worth about a million bucks here - Even just a drawing. There are a few folks doing these ( jug chokes ) for todays muzzleloading crowd - Lowell Tenyson used to do them, and I think Danny Caywood is still doing them. I have one that Danny did. Great post
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    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by square butte View Post
    I think I understand how the tool work - But boy, a picture would be worth about a million bucks here - Even just a drawing. There are a few folks doing these ( jug chokes ) for todays muzzleloading crowd - Lowell Tenyson used to do them, and I think Danny Caywood is still doing them. I have one that Danny did. Great post
    I tried to grab links for the pics in CoyoteJoe's original post in the muzzleloader forum, but PhotoBucket ate them.
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    I seem to learn something new every day on this forum. I did a google search and now know what a "jug choke" is!

    thanks
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    How do you measure the depth of the cut so you know when to stop? The only way I can see is with a Shotgun Bore Gauge. Maybe a Snap Gauge would work?

    I haven't been able to find any real dimensions for this process like "Where it starts and ends." Seems like there is a lot of room for Interpretation here. Best info I got on that was from Mega who told me starts 1/2" from the muzzle and then goes 2" behind that?

    I've read 4" long with the Scraper Tool. So what is going to work?

    I saw pictures of the tool they used to do this process and I can say with no doubt it would be a hit and miss proposition. Not something to rely on success on the first try.

    I would look at chucking the barrel in a lathe and boring the undercut with a stiff boring bar. For IC Choke you are doing +.010 and only taking .005 per side so it is not a big cut. For Full Choke you are looking at taking .020 on a side which still isn't a big cut.

    The barrel I have is made form Cro-Moly Steel which machines poorly. However there is such a small amount being removed that there really isn't a big chance for bad things to happen.

    Then I'd polish it out using my 12 ga Flex Hones which would smooth the whole thing out. I have 400 grit and 800 grit Flex Hones.

    My whole purpose here is to get some concrete dimensions that someone with a lathe could follow.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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    I found a really good description with all the details in an online Manual of Shotgun Gunsmithing. I printed out pages 75-76 which dealt with Jug Choking, but then I hit the wrong button and dumped it and now I can't find it ! I googled Jug Choking a Shotgun Barrel and this one was 2-3 pages down.

    The gist of it was "a section from 2-6" long, starting 1/2" behind the muzzle." (The Jug) .010 to .040 total IE: .005 to .020 per side. Make sure to have smooth taper on both entry and exit ends of the Jug. IC works best and delivers the closest result to a real IC choke. Hard to get a decent full choke pattern.

    Flex Hones work well and are superior to "Polish" Hones (Emery cloth wrapped around a mandrel) which takes much longer.

    It stated that "Trial and Error" was the order of the day, and you would Hone some then Pattern the Gun, and so on, until the desired pattern was achieved.

    Anyway I've got enough info to do a test on a chunk of barrel and see if I can do something useful without making a mess.

    See my signature, luck may be a factor.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I'd call Danny Caywood, link below. He has a good reputation on turning muzzleloaders into long range turkey killers. You might be able to ask how long he does them, what angles, and how long the parallel section. Ultimately you are creating a short backbored barrel. If I were to attempt it, I would try and copy a Carlson's choke tube (or whatever your favorite brand is), as far as angle, and parallel section. For the length of the backbore, I'm guessing there is no hard data on what works best. Also below is a link to the muzzleloader forum. Post #5 has a picture of a jug choke, AKA Tula choke. I'm going to estimate the distance between 1 and 2 on my Knight TK2000 is about 4". It's hard to tell exactly with only feeling with a patch.


    http://www.caywoodguns.com/jug-choking.html

    https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/t...ginning.99334/

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by square butte View Post
    I think I understand how the tool work - But boy, a picture would be worth about a million bucks here - Even just a drawing. There are a few folks doing these ( jug chokes ) for todays muzzleloading crowd - Lowell Tenyson used to do them, and I think Danny Caywood is still doing them. I have one that Danny did. Great post
    Try this for both the images and text of the patent: https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNu...3DPN%2F0128379

    HTH!

    Bill

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    Carlson's Choke Tubes were originally made on First Gen Omni-Turn CNC lathes which I designed and built. I like Carlson alot and they actually are still using some of my machines for smaller jobs. All the tubes I have bought have been Carlson. ("This has been a side note.")

    Lots of emphasis on making sure the transition between the bore and the jug were smooth. Considering the the undercut is only going to be .005-.007 on a side there isn't going to be much of a step there no matter how you do it. Just finishing the job with my Flex Hones will take care of any steps left by the Boring Bar. The inserts in the boring bar have a .015 or.030 radius on the points any way. So there will be some taper there and the hones will finish them.

    The idea on how long to make the Jug is up for debate and appears to be somewhat subjective. The basis of the idea was that the entire wad/payload needed to be swallowed by the Jug (@ 2") so that expansion would be complete. Then on the exit the wad/payload would be compressed back down imparting the "Constriction" to the payload. Hence the "IC Choke." and this all happens in @2 Milliseconds.

    My main interest in this process is to get Buckshot to pattern down close to 7" at 25 yards like my Vang Comped barrels do but not have a "Back Bored Barrel" that is .015 bigger than cylinder bore which seems to make Lee Slugs Loose and thus group poorly, or not at all.

    With the Jug Choke the barrel is still cylinder bore except for a small area towards the forward end which acts like back boring + choking at the end but doesn't give the slug a chance to reposition itself from Square in the wad like the fully back bored barrel does.

    Everything I've read says that Jug Choking shoots round balls well. Generally Lee Slugs and Round Balls perform about the same in most un modified guns. So if it will close up the buckshot patterns as well we've got a winner..

    I guess the only way to find out is to sacrifice a barrel to the cause?

    Randy.
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 08-07-2021 at 03:41 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Wow, that's awesome. I've always been a Carlson's choke tube fan. I guess I never warmed up to the fancy choke tubes like some people. I immediately go the other way when someone touts "duck killerz" as the end all, be all choke tube, especially when they couldn't tell me if it's a modified, or full, or what kind of magic it has. Yes, I realize Carlson's got in that game with their Cremator series, which is such a bogus title, with bogus "technology".

    I buy Carlson's extended black colored sporting clays tubes. I wish I could convince them to make a Poly Choke II clone, but they don't seem to want to go for it.

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub Seitz 555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by square butte View Post
    I think I understand how the tool work - But boy, a picture would be worth about a million bucks here - Even just a drawing. There are a few folks doing these ( jug chokes ) for todays muzzleloading crowd - Lowell Tenyson used to do them, and I think Danny Caywood is still doing them. I have one that Danny did. Great post
    Here is a my attempt at a jug choke drawing on a BT 99

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	BT_99 Jug Choke Drwg copy.jpg 
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  12. #12
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    After cutting my barrel off I found out it wouldn't fit thru the spindle of my lathe. So I had no way to cut the Jug Choke.

    So it's getting sent to Vang Comp today to get threaded for Rem Choke. I'll run an IC choke tube which should give me the results I wanted. If not, I can just change the Choke Tube.

    Oh well?

    I have one other barrel I can try this on if I find someone who will let me use their engine lathe for a few minutes.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master


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    It was worth a shot.

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