About the AMPCO nipples

[Claudius]

I bought 6 nipples made by AMPCO for my Pedersoli Gibbs, but it is necessary forcing a bit to screw them correctly. Is this normal?
I decided to give a try to the beryllium AMPCO 1/4" x 28 nipples because the Gibbs burns normal nipples very quickly.

[freakonaleash]

You need Platinum lined nipples for those guns. Pedersolis are probably going to have some sort of metric thread so 1/4 X 28 aren't going to work.

[Claudius]

Absolutely not, the Pedersoli Gibbs and other american replicas of the same brand have 1/4 x 28 nipples, as you can see on their website. But trying other nipple brands I find that is necessary to forcing a bit screwing them in the nipple's hole.

[BS2]

Ampco threads hard and the size may run large.

Try buying and using a 1/4-28 threading die on them.

The better dies will have a screw adjustment for tweaking size.

[Claudius]

Thanks BS2, I'll follow your advice.

[Eddie Southgate]

I used one in a Zoli Zouave years ago . Didn't hold up and was a bear to remove . One was enough for me . It was tighter than normal going in .

[Chill Wills]

You need Platinum lined nipples for those guns.

Nothing but Platinum hold up for more than a few shots in my Gibbs. They will go longer (sure) but the very fine accuracy at the ranges they are made for drops off to unusable.
There is nothing wrong with the AMPCO nipples. They are great for what they are made for.
BUT - Long range muzzleloaders, your Gibbs, with ballistics like a 45-100 sharps is a mis-match for the AMPCO nipple.

[Claudius]

I tried a platinum nipple from BACO, but I had two not so good surprises: first the platinum nipple wasn't fitting at all to the nipple hole, I had to modify the threads with a small triangular file, second my groups were much larger than before using 65gn and 85gn of swiss nr.3. So I decided to switch to the AMPCO nipples and to find another platinum nipple maker.

[William Yanda]

Any speculation as to why the loss of accuracy with Ampco nipples reported by the two contributors above?
Bill

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Claudius,

AMPCO is some tough stuff. We used it for a good wearing bushings in the industrial world.
I think you probably got from a batch of slightly over sized threads.
If they go in, you'll be okay, but if you need extra force to seat them, I'd try running them through a die.

AntiqueSledMan.

[charlie b]

Any speculation as to why the loss of accuracy with Ampco nipples reported by the two contributors above?
Bill

Yes, they aren't hard enough.

The pressure and volume of gasses/powder residue from the heavy bullet rifles is really hard on the nipple orifice. 80-100gn of black powder and 400-600gn bullets. The gasses are 'abrasive' and will erode the opening. A standard stainless nipple won't last for even one shooting session before it opens up. The AMPCO's I have used were good for a bit more, maybe 50 rounds. Platinum works a lot longer.

If you don't shoot very much, as in hunting only, the AMPCO's will work ok. But, for target shooting, 20 rounds or more a day, the nipples are exposed to a lot more abuse.

FYI, the platinum nipples are a regular nipple that is lined with a platinum tube.

[bedbugbilly]

Can't speak to a Gibbs but have used AMPCO nipples in a number of rifles.

My experience was just the opposite of Eddie Southgate's. I install a AMPCO nipple in my Remington Zouave in 1966. I used the rifle when I shott N-SSA and it has literally thousands of rounds through the barrel. The AMPCO nipple I bought and installed all those years ago is still working just fine. I don't know if there are different grades in the material used, but that nipple was the one that sold me on them.

[Claudius]

Can't speak to a Gibbs but have used AMPCO nipples in a number of rifles.

My experience was just the opposite of Eddie Southgate's. I install a AMPCO nipple in my Remington Zouave in 1966. I used the rifle when I shott N-SSA and it has literally thousands of rounds through the barrel. The AMPCO nipple I bought and installed all those years ago is still working just fine. I don't know if there are different grades in the material used, but that nipple was the one that sold me on them.

The Zouave and other similar military rifles are a different business, in this case almost any nipple is very durable because their larger hole, the lower temps and the different breechs.

[freakonaleash]

I have used a Ampco vent liners in flint guns before and found they don't last any longer then stainless steel.

[William Yanda]

Yes, they aren't hard enough.

The pressure and volume of gasses/powder residue from the heavy bullet rifles is really hard on the nipple orifice. 80-100gn of black powder and 400-600gn bullets. The gasses are 'abrasive' and will erode the opening. A standard stainless nipple won't last for even one shooting session before it opens up. The AMPCO's I have used were good for a bit more, maybe 50 rounds. Platinum works a lot longer.

If you don't shoot very much, as in hunting only, the AMPCO's will work ok. But, for target shooting, 20 rounds or more a day, the nipples are exposed to a lot more abuse.

FYI, the platinum nipples are a regular nipple that is lined with a platinum tube.

Thanks for your answer.
So my takeaway should be that for pistols with 20-40 grain charges the AMPCO's are adequate?

[freakonaleash]

Thanks for your answer.
So my takeaway should be that for pistols with 20-40 grain charges the AMPCO's are adequate?

Yes. And, standard stainless steel are fine too.

[bedbugbilly]

Claudius - point well taken - the Gibbs is certainly a different animal than a rifled musket. My point was just to state what my experience was with AMPCO. I also used an AMPCO nipple for a #11 cap in an original Barentt .577 Enfield for target shooting - much smaller flash hole and it held up well for thousands of rounds that I put through it before I sold it. Was it a Gibs Rifle - no - but I found then to work and last - just my experience. As Louis Sullivan said - "Form follows function".

Your rifle may very well need platinum lined nipples or whatever Pedersoli recommends - every rifle is different - everybody's mileage varies. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is "what was used in the original Gibbs rifles? If the rifle was common enough to be reproduced - then there ought to be documented sources and originals to be examined to answer that question.

Muzzleloading has come a long way since I started shooting close to sixty years ago. The BP shooters owe a lot to folks like Turner Kirkland - who started by selling gun parts out of the trunk of his car. Now there are better barrels, better locks, high tech nipples in a wide variety of designs and materials, etc. It gets to the point sometimes where a person wonders how our ancestors ever got along with their muzzleloaders without all these things.

I do hope that you find the nipples that work best in your rifle - both thread fit wise and function wise - I have no idea what documentation may exist on what was used in the original Gibbs - but if you find out, it might answer the question of what will actually function the best and last the longest. Good luck to you.

[Claudius]

@Bedbugbilly: thank you for your reply, yours are good points where to start to understand things. The Gibbs rifle, both original and replica, had the "infamous" Patent breech, a very good system to burn the BP more efficiently, but the temps and the pressures are much higher compared to a normal percussion rifle. Many of the Pedersoli rifles have this kind of Patent breech, but their Gibbs has a special one.
For this reason the original Gibbs and other long distance rifles had platinum nipples, today the long distance shooters use the platinum nipples because their durability.

Regarding the AMPCO nipples, I tried one few days ago on my Gibbs and I found a very good ignition with my first test of 8 shots, unfortunately the group was much larger than before, I think that is necessary to adjust my loads.