Lee PrecisionInline FabricationWidenersLoad Data
Titan ReloadingRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyReloading Everything
Repackbox
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55

Thread: 22LR reloading powder charge

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Well, Traffer had a couple of posts that disappeared ...

    One of them, regarding HS-6, caused me to wonder about AA7. I'm quite sure I saw data for it (and I HAVE some) but it seems like it'd be pretty slow. It's at 74 on one burn rate chart, HS-6 is at 60 and 3N37 is in the middle at 64.

    Anybody have any thoughts on AA7 for the 22LR?

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,314
    Comparing in Quickload, AA7 looks too slow, but not so much as to say don't try it. Charge for 1200 fps in an 18 inch barrel would be around 2.5 grains. In MY model, which may or may not be all that close to reality. I don't load the .22 LR, so it hasn't been proven.

    A negative from the calculation is that only 67% of the charge actually burns.

    HS-6 is almost exactly like 3N37.
    Cognitive Dissident

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Comparing in Quickload, AA7 looks too slow, but not so much as to say don't try it. Charge for 1200 fps in an 18 inch barrel would be around 2.5 grains. In MY model, which may or may not be all that close to reality. I don't load the .22 LR, so it hasn't been proven.

    A negative from the calculation is that only 67% of the charge actually burns.

    HS-6 is almost exactly like 3N37.
    So out of a 4" barrel, AA7 is going to be pretty anemic. I'll keep an eye out for the HS-6 or 3N37.

    How confident can I be that if 2.5gr of AA7 in the 22LR case would lead to excessive pressure, that Quickload would flag it as dangerous?

    Thanks for your help.

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    PM me if you want any of my input
    I am not here to argue with anyone

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,314
    Define excessive pressure. SAAMI says something like 25k, but from my "thought experiments" in Quickload I don't think commercial ammo is loaded any higher that about 12k. Possible exception of the "hypervelocity" roiunds like Stingers. I caution again that my model uses a case volume measured by the water method, which is very difficult to do accurately for such a tiny case.
    Cognitive Dissident

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Define excessive pressure. SAAMI says something like 25k, but from my "thought experiments" in Quickload I don't think commercial ammo is loaded any higher that about 12k. Possible exception of the "hypervelocity" roiunds like Stingers. I caution again that my model uses a case volume measured by the water method, which is very difficult to do accurately for such a tiny case.
    Excessive pressure would be anything that might blow a case. Sounds like 2.5 is well below spec. I may try it just to see once I get my rifle back in the wind.

    I understand that anything I assemble, I'm on my own and flying half blind.

  7. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    The effective pressure maximum is 19,000 psi.
    16,000 psi will show signs of overpressure.
    Depending on the gun...some guns will allow the cases to blow more consistently.
    It seems that the newer rifles are designed so that the bottoms of the bolts have a void or open area so the cases when rupturing will blow the gasses downward and out of the face of the shooter.
    These modern bolt faces with the thin cases will have case failures at about 18,000 psi.
    That is usually equavilent to about 1500 fps with a 40 gn bullet in a 22" rifle barrel.
    Overpressure signs start to show up at about 1400 fps in the same situation.
    These pictures show some eley cases that were overpressured. The polygonal notch on the head is the area where the bolt face was void. The ones that have bulging but not blown were shooting a 40 gn bullet at 1450 fps which is equavilent to about 16,000 psi.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Eley Overpressure.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	48.1 KB 
ID:	287055
    Edit:
    The pressures are estimated from the chronographed velocities and run through Quickload. I have discovered that there are variables which would cause my pressure assumptions to be off.
    The velocities for 40gn bullets are correct. But the maximum pressure of 19000 psi is not correct. It appears that as SAMI published maximums...The 1500fps 40 gn bullets are rather pushing 22000+ psi.
    Thus the overpressuring signs on these cases are in the 20000 psi range and the blown cases are in the 25000 psi range (estimated).
    Last edited by Traffer; 08-05-2021 at 03:09 AM.

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    I had compiled a list of what I think would be ideal powders for 22lr. I have not tested these but rather worked them out with a combination of Quickload specs and pictures of the actual powder (to make sure these powders were of small enough grain to practically load in the tiny 22lr cases)
    I will have to look for that list ...
    Also I have recently been looking at some very fast shotgun powders which are not often used for pistol reloading. Some of these look very promising.
    It is imperitive that loads be worked out according to a good program like quickload. two tenths of a grain can make a DANGEROUS difference with these extremely fast powders.
    WEAR EYE PROTECTION when working with this stuff. I would be blind right now if I hadn't.

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,314
    Pretty dramatic, there, Traffer!

    What are you using for the case volume parameter in QL? I'm using 4.90 grains H2O, but I don't trust it very much.

    Superfast powders produce higher peak pressures per unit of muzzle velocity - but you knew that. That's why I'm looking at Herco and even Blue Dot for my .25 Stevens rimfire loads. Not really comparable since the .25 has 3x the case capacity
    Cognitive Dissident

  10. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    I am a novice at using the calculators. Using Gordons Reloading tool now. The way I went about it was by testing loads with the chrono then matching the velocities with QL.
    Velocities of 1450fps with a 40gn powder coated bullet started showing signs of overpressure. Velocities of 1600+ fps would blow out most cases
    I only used HS-6 for testing.
    2.7gn of HS-6 did the 1600+fps velocities with blown cases.
    2.4gn of HS-6 ran about 1350 to 1400 fps.
    I set QL to show those specs with all parameters and used that model to plug in other powders. The pmax of the 2.7gn HS-6 showed about 19000psi so I thought that was a correct parameter. But that was wrong. I had some other parameters set incorrectly. It is actually about 25000psi.
    I tried to find powders that would balance powder burnt near 100% with pmax as close to 10x the velocities. Some have higher velocities per pressure because of the timing of the spike.
    It is hard to use these calculators for 22lr because some parameters don't want to enter. They want the diameter of the bullet to be within .001" of the bore, which is not correct for a 22lr. So I have to fudge the parameters a bit to get it right.
    I seat the bullets .100" into the case which lowers the capacity quite a bit. So I figure about 4.0 grains of H2O capacity. I think it is actually a little less than that. But that figure works.
    From my testing and info from others who use faster powders I am pretty sure of my calculations.
    Crimp does make a considerable difference...if you change the values of initial pressure in Gordons Reloading Guide it shows up. I don't know how to relate the initial pressure to crimp pull weight but it should be substantial.
    Also, interestingly QL has a variable for slickness of the bullet (I forget what they call it) which also makes a considerable difference.
    Anyway I know from experience that without a crimp HS-6 is not a viable propellant according to the tests the late John Kort did. With the crimp however, HS-6 is a very good propellant. I believe it, or something very similar, is used by commercial ammunition manufacturers.

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,314
    Well, you must be doing something close to what I'm doing, because my .22LR model gives me very similar answers.

    My seating depth is .093, very close to yours.

    As stated I'm using 4.9 as case volume. I think 4.0 is low. I don't think my weighing and measuring was that far off.

    My bore area setting is .037293 (24.06 square millimeters)

    Shot start parameter I have set at 1234. Purely arbitrary - I use that number for all cast bullets except very hard ones. Crimp would of course alter this. (I do not crimp any of my single-shot loads, from the .25 Stevens on up.) Impossible for us to measure independent of all the other factors anyway.

    I'm calling the bullet a flatbase. I think it becomes one as soon as the heel is out of the case.

    I get 24986 for 2.7 grains of HS-6, with 1570 fps from an 18" barrel. Not tested over a chronograph.

    That "friction proofing" is for molycoated jacketed bullet. Not relevant for us. Ignore it.

    HS-6 and 3N37 yield very similar pressure/time curves, despite having differing factors. So does Power Pistol, which is designed for 9mm loading, at much higher pressures. I will have to see what it does in my .25 loads. I'd expect SDs to go up when used at 12kpsi, but who knows?
    Cognitive Dissident

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    The effective pressure maximum is 19,000 psi.
    16,000 psi will show signs of overpressure.
    Depending on the gun...some guns will allow the cases to blow more consistently.
    It seems that the newer rifles are designed so that the bottoms of the bolts have a void or open area so the cases when rupturing will blow the gasses downward and out of the face of the shooter.
    These modern bolt faces with the thin cases will have case failures at about 18,000 psi.
    That is usually equavilent to about 1500 fps with a 40 gn bullet in a 22" rifle barrel.
    Overpressure signs start to show up at about 1400 fps in the same situation.
    These pictures show some eley cases that were overpressured. The polygonal notch on the head is the area where the bolt face was void. The ones that have bulging but not blown were shooting a 40 gn bullet at 1450 fps which is equavilent to about 16,000 psi.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Eley Overpressure.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	48.1 KB 
ID:	287055
    Edit:
    The pressures are estimated from the chronographed velocities and run through Quickload. I have discovered that there are variables which would cause my pressure assumptions to be off.
    The velocities for 40gn bullets are correct. But the maximum pressure of 19000 psi is not correct. It appears that as SAMI published maximums...The 1500fps 40 gn bullets are rather pushing 22000+ psi.
    Thus the overpressuring signs on these cases are in the 20000 psi range and the blown cases are in the 25000 psi range (estimated).
    I'm getting just enough rounding on the bottom of these Fedarm cases that you can rock it slightly on the bench but it's hard to see. This is @ 1.2grains of AA2.

  13. #33
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    "I'm getting just enough rounding on the bottom of these Fedarm cases that you can rock it slightly on the bench but it's hard to see. This is @ 1.2grains of AA2."
    According to both quick load and gordons reloading calculators 1.2 gn of AA#2 should be well within limits. Even 1.5 gn should be plenty safe.
    QL shows under 16000psi with 1.5gn of AA#2... That is well within limits.

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Well, playing with these 1.2grain AA2 charges is interesting.

    I'm seeing a few split cases and having difficult extraction in both test guns (S&W K-22 and Ruger Standard Model)

    The cases are splitting lengthwise, towards the front of the case.

    Backed off to 1.1 and the split cases go away but extraction is a real bear.

    I think I'm going back to the Titegroup and see if I have the same problems.

  15. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    Quote Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
    Well, playing with these 1.2grain AA2 charges is interesting.

    I'm seeing a few split cases and having difficult extraction in both test guns (S&W K-22 and Ruger Standard Model)

    The cases are splitting lengthwise, towards the front of the case.

    Backed off to 1.1 and the split cases go away but extraction is a real bear.

    I think I'm going back to the Titegroup and see if I have the same problems.
    I have never encountered split cases lengthwise. It may be that very fast burning powder won't work. I have seen people use bulleseye and red dot and they have not reported split cases. It is an interesting development...beyond my understanding of this stuff, I guess.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    I have never encountered split cases lengthwise. It may be that very fast burning powder won't work. I have seen people use bulleseye and red dot and they have not reported split cases. It is an interesting development...beyond my understanding of this stuff, I guess.
    Here's one with a small split. The others, which I set aside for reference ... somewhere ... are split about half way down.

    I wonder if my crimp is too heavy ... ?

    Edit: Thinking about it, I moved the crimp just slightly back down and it's heavier. The splits started showing up in the heavier crimp ... I think. Tomorrow's another day. I think I'll back the crimp off and see what happens.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails noname(33).jpg  
    Last edited by AlHunt; 08-07-2021 at 07:03 PM.

  17. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    It's hard to tell but the little pinch marks actually fold the case and could cause the start of a crack. You may want to try setting your collet to bottom out before the segments of the collet come together completely...leaving a little space between so the pinch marks are not so tight.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,314
    Maybe I'm repeating myself here but. . . . Fast powders give higher peak pressures per unit of muzzle velocity than slower ones. Very obvious when you run scenarios in Quickload. Increasing the crimp or the bullet weight exaggerates this.

    Something I've learned from expanding .17WSM to make .25 Stevens: They don't make any effort to keep the case mouths from being brittle. (It's only going to be fired once.)
    Last edited by uscra112; 08-07-2021 at 07:19 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy AlHunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Maybe I'm repeating myself here but. . . . Fast powders give higher peak pressures per unit of muzzle velocity than slower ones. Very obvious when you run scenarios in Quickload. Increasing the crimp or the bullet weight exaggerates this.

    Something I've learned from expanding .17WSM to make .25 Stevens: They don't make any effort to keep the case mouths from being brittle. (It's only going to be fired once.)
    I'll probably give the AA7 a quick few rounds just to see, despite the unburned powder. Maybe the slower pressure curve will ease case expansion. Maybe neither of those AAs are going to be suitable. I have my eye out for 3N37 locally. Shipping and hazmat make buying 1 pound online way too expensive.

    I hope fine tuning that crimp on AA2 will ease my extraction issue, too. And case splitting.

  20. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    Quote Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
    I'll probably give the AA7 a quick few rounds just to see, despite the unburned powder. Maybe the slower pressure curve will ease case expansion. Maybe neither of those AAs are going to be suitable. I have my eye out for 3N37 locally. Shipping and hazmat make buying 1 pound online way too expensive.

    I hope fine tuning that crimp on AA2 will ease my extraction issue, too. And case splitting.
    I know quite a few people who have used fast powders without case splitting. They do not crimp though. Perhaps with AA2 you could experiment with a very light crimp and see what happens.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check