Cap N Ball Boolit Alloy

[rodwha]

I am still a newbie to casting, but if casting pure lead isn't the answer to "fill-out" issues just a matter of higher heat? I was/am of the impression our reasons for casting at lower temps was primarily to prevent the tin and antimony from separating out on top of the melt. Just wondering out loud...

Actually tin is considered ideal for helping with fill out, it’s been suggested to me by other cap n ball guys, that I even just 2% might make all the difference. It also doesn’t seem to disrupt its malleability much either. I’m actually quite shocked so many here are anti any alloy.

[jim147]

I tried some conicals in the 8 range years ago. It didn't work well. Went to soft lead and no problems.

[rodwha]

I tried some conicals in the 8 range years ago. It didn't work well. Went to soft lead and no problems.

What didn’t go well for you?

I’ve only loaded Kaido’s bullets in my Ruger but all things worked just as good as the maybe 8 other bullet types I’ve shot through it. If it fits on top of its preferred 35 grn charge each target will look the same despite being a different projectile, including a ball. The same has held true with my NMA but all I’ve shot through it were my two bullets and a ball, so all cast by me from scrap lead piping I melted down. That should be about pure or close enough to 5 BHN. So it’s never shot anything very hard.

[Walks]

I used to Cowboy Shoot with a Guy that used Bear Creek Moly-Coated 200gr H&G #68style bullets. He used no additional lube.

[sharps4590]

For those of you who replied with pure lead, why would you do so if your results are poor fills? From what I understand the base is more important for accuracy. Regardless 2% tin adds what 0.3 BHN? Maybe that might be important on a Remington Pocket or some other tiny fragile loading mechanism. As I said there are people hunting with Kaido’s (and other) bullets from various .44 cal repros cast around 10 BHN for going on a decade. That seems harder than I’d want, though the modified Lee 255 grn bullet reduced to 240 grns for repros pushed by full charges of 3F T7 gives nose through tail full penetration on adults hogs in Florida.

My balls or bullets, when poured of straight lead, look like advertising pictures for a mold manufacturer. Maybe it's the guy doing the casting?

Edit: Seriously, pour what you want to try. The revolver will tell you if it likes it. I doubt a bit of tin is going to be cause for damage to the Ruger. If you get it too hard, you'll know.

There is folks who jump out of perfectly good aircraft but, I'm not going to.

[rodwha]

It certainly could well be the guy doing the casting. I’ve done everything I’ve read or been told to do, wash well, dry, and smoke with wooden matches, along with turning the heat all the way up, resting the aluminum mold on the pot while it heats, and recycle the first several pours before I even consider the mold hot enough and my bullets and REALs have beveled edges. My pot can get no hotter, though I doubt that’s the issue. I’m all ears for suggestions, they go further than mocking anyway, especially with me.

[yeahbub]

I've noticed that different batches of "pure" lead will vary somewhat in how well the mold fills out. For a pot-full of reclaimed plumbing lead that didn't want to cast, adding a bit of tin almost always helped. For good fill-out purposes, 2% tin is the max that will make a difference. More than that won't improve castability, but some people prefer binary alloys for how they expand without fracturing in tough targets, unlike lead/tin/antimony alloys tend to when they exceed about 12 BHN. I have used WW alloy in C&B revolvers and still got good obturation with conicals before they age hardened too much. WW RB's are tougher to make that happen with because they don't have the mass/inertia and get moving more easily. But in the ROA, the chambers are already (properly) larger than groove diameter and obturation isn't needed to get a good seal in the bore. WW's or soft lead will work fine there. It's the repro revolvers with the undersize chambers that benefit from soft alloys. One of my favorite designs for the ROA and the NMA is the Lee 200gr REAL. I can size and lube the grooves in a Lyman 4500, .455 for the ROA and .451 for the NMA. To "heel" the conicals of whatever description, I remove the collet/decapping stem from a Lee .308, .30-06 or 8x57 full-length die and push the boolits into the die with the stem from a Lee push-through sizer far enough for the taper to reduce the heel band diameter to what I need for the revolver, .451 for the ROA and .445 for my NMA's .447 chambers. A long 5/16" punch through the top of the die and a whack with a dead-blow will pop them loose. Presto, bullets which drop into the chambers to the middle driving band, will rotate under the rammer and are positioned and centered for seating.

[jim147]

What didn’t go well for you?

I’ve only loaded Kaido’s bullets in my Ruger but all things worked just as good as the maybe 8 other bullet types I’ve shot through it. If it fits on top of its preferred 35 grn charge each target will look the same despite being a different projectile, including a ball. The same has held true with my NMA but all I’ve shot through it were my two bullets and a ball, so all cast by me from scrap lead piping I melted down. That should be about pure or close enough to 5 BHN. So it’s never shot anything very hard.

Hard to load and did not shoot well. I only tried it once so my not be the best info.

[sharps4590]

A friend of mine has a Whitworth and the 520 gr.(?) hexagonal mold. He couldn't get a good, read that pretty, bullet from straight lead. I told him maybe try casting faster. It worked for him.

Are you dipping or bottom pouring? I can cast perfect bullets within 1/2 gr. dipping. Bottom pouring.....well, I'd never use those bullets for precision work.

[Wayne Smith]

Speaking strictly of C&B revolvers except the Ruger Old Army, the issue is the loading lever - not fit or anything else. If you use a loading block or stand you can probably get away with harder alloy. If you are loading with the loading lever use pure only, otherwise you overstrain the lever. I've never had/used an ROA so I have no idea how strong the loading lever is on that.

I have no hesitation using WW or binary alloy in my round ball rifles, but they are patched round balls and the patch holds the rifling, not the ball.

[farmbif]

as many other said, pure lead is what I use in the 1851 navy and 1860 army. 1-2% tin will help mold fill out on those conicals

[ShooterAZ]

I've tried some of the LEE conicals in my ROA, they shot OK but they didn't really come close to being as accurate as round ball loads. If I'm having trouble with fillout in my pure lead BP loads, I turn up the heat until they cast well. I have added a touch of tin in the past, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference. More heat was what I needed.

[rodwha]

I've noticed that different batches of "pure" lead will vary somewhat in how well the mold fills out. For a pot-full of reclaimed plumbing lead that didn't want to cast, adding a bit of tin almost always helped. For good fill-out purposes, 2% tin is the max that will make a difference. More than that won't improve castability, but some people prefer binary alloys for how they expand without fracturing in tough targets, unlike lead/tin/antimony alloys tend to when they exceed about 12 BHN. I have used WW alloy in C&B revolvers and still got good obturation with conicals before they age hardened too much. WW RB's are tougher to make that happen with because they don't have the mass/inertia and get moving more easily. But in the ROA, the chambers are already (properly) larger than groove diameter and obturation isn't needed to get a good seal in the bore. WW's or soft lead will work fine there. It's the repro revolvers with the undersize chambers that benefit from soft alloys. One of my favorite designs for the ROA and the NMA is the Lee 200gr REAL. I can size and lube the grooves in a Lyman 4500, .455 for the ROA and .451 for the NMA. To "heel" the conicals of whatever description, I remove the collet/decapping stem from a Lee .308, .30-06 or 8x57 full-length die and push the boolits into the die with the stem from a Lee push-through sizer far enough for the taper to reduce the heel band diameter to what I need for the revolver, .451 for the ROA and .445 for my NMA's .447 chambers. A long 5/16" punch through the top of the die and a whack with a dead-blow will pop them loose. Presto, bullets which drop into the chambers to the middle driving band, will rotate under the rammer and are positioned and centered for seating.

So going beyond 2% tin doesn’t help anymore with fill out. I had not come across that, thanks!

These are for hunting and for that I want a large meplat, especially since expansion cannot be counted upon at these lower velocities. I have a design I created long ago but abandoned for a much heavier version. It’s this other that’s quite close to what my universal bullet will be like, I just have a few things I want to tweak, and am awaiting a response from a fellow who ordered it larger diameter as Charlie Hahn (spl?) reams any .44/.45 percussion cylinder to .456”. Anyway, this is the bullet I’m working off of:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...bullet=45-245C

I’m probably going to end up getting a .453” reamer and bringing the NMA up to the same specs. As thin as those walls are, which has given me major pause and why it hasn’t been done yet, I’ve been told by too many people they’ve had theirs taken out further and also using stout charges of energetic powders with bullets.

[rodwha]

A friend of mine has a Whitworth and the 520 gr.(?) hexagonal mold. He couldn't get a good, read that pretty, bullet from straight lead. I told him maybe try casting faster. It worked for him.

Are you dipping or bottom pouring? I can cast perfect bullets within 1/2 gr. dipping. Bottom pouring.....well, I'd never use those bullets for precision work.

I’m dipping from a 4 lb Lee pot. I wouldn’t think I’m pouring very slow, but it doesn’t hurt to try making haste slowly.

[rodwha]

Speaking strictly of C&B revolvers except the Ruger Old Army, the issue is the loading lever - not fit or anything else. If you use a loading block or stand you can probably get away with harder alloy. If you are loading with the loading lever use pure only, otherwise you overstrain the lever. I've never had/used an ROA so I have no idea how strong the loading lever is on that.

I have no hesitation using WW or binary alloy in my round ball rifles, but they are patched round balls and the patch holds the rifling, not the ball.

The Ruger is tough, it’s only weak point really being to forget to lock the retaining screw. Repros don’t use as strong of steel but apparently a bunch of various repros can handle around 10 BHN as it’s been done by far too many people for far too long. The only ones I’ve read that break are the little pocket Remingtons, but I’ve also read of teeth from a newer model Colt busting from something, probably too hard of a projectile I’d guess. I wouldn’t want to get close to 10 BHN though, I feel 7 would be as high as I’d want to go for these speeds, as I said I welcome a little expansion anyway.

I use the loading system they’re intended to use. I carry enough crap in my shooting bag and there’s no way I’d carry extras in the field.

[rodwha]

I've tried some of the LEE conicals in my ROA, they shot OK but they didn't really come close to being as accurate as round ball loads. If I'm having trouble with fillout in my pure lead BP loads, I turn up the heat until they cast well. I have added a touch of tin in the past, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference. More heat was what I needed.

Maybe I just need to break down and purchase a thermometer. I wouldn’t think my pot is struggling to reach proper temps, but who knows?

[rodwha]

I still have further powder charge tests for both pistols now that I have a more accurate powder measure. From there I calculate the space needed to keep gas cutting from eating the nose, space for a potential cardboard punched card, and a little to account for any possible slight overcharges, but so far I’ve found the excess chamber capacity I want to fill with lead that will work with both revolvers is an OAL of about 0.525”. I think I’d prefer to get as close to 240 grns as possible as it just seems about ideal for the power range. Maybe shaving a bit off of their respective accurate hunting charges a few hairs would be worthwhile. This is what I’m working off so far:



What I’ll do after I’ve settled all of this and created the bullet will be to order a new loading lever assembly for the NMA so that I can epoxy the ram to the bullet. This will keep deformation from happening. I want to keep the ability to shoot balls, though I just really don’t as I believe in practicing with what you use, but…

Now the fellow who utilized the epoxy also worked with all sorts of other things, among them hollow points. He created an epoxy form with the cavity stem and it worked well. I’m speculating the WFN ram might keep the cavity from deforming, and if not another loading assembly will fix that.

After he showed the various hollow point projectiles and whatnot he was as testing I realized that in essence I would be working with a lead version of the old Flying Ashtray from Speer. I don’t know that I’d mess with the hollow point modification, but it is an interesting idea having something like that as well. And from what I’ve read soft lead at these lower velocities holds up quite well. This was another consideration as far as going a little beyond 2% tin and a mold set for that if I find it needs to be a little harder.

If I have a mold set to drop proper bullets using 2% tin at .454”, but use 5% or 2% tin/antimony would the result be negligible for my uses since they’re slightly oversized even for the Ruger? I’ve also clearly figured maybe having it set for 5% might be best if I decide I am serious about having a couple of cavities hollow pointed.

[rodwha]

I recently read something that stated adding 1% tin iirc produced just 0.3 BHN to lead. But looking just now I see listed 2.5% tin is 8.5 BHN. My impression from what I’ve read was 2% tin really didn’t change the characteristics over pure lead by much at all, that it wasn’t really all that harder.

[GregLaROCHE]

The ball needs to be .457”, but a bullet doesn’t need to be grossly oversized since it has bearing surfaces.

I’m using a Lee pot, and turned all the way up and still get fill issues. I don’t have a thermometer but I’d assume it’s reaching the proper temp.

If you have a Lee pot turned up all the way, you are probably casting too hot or the pot has a problem and doesn’t heat to it’s potential.

[rodwha]

If you have a Lee pot turned up all the way, you are probably casting too hot or the pot has a problem and doesn’t heat to it’s potential.

Yeah, because turning it to its highest setting didn’t improve things I moved it back down from 10 to 8 where I usually kept it. I’ve not heard of being too hot a bad thing, that you just get frosting