You can't shoot a 45/70 over 1400 w/o leading!

[mto7464]

Whaaaaat? This is what a guy told me today. (BTW he is not a caster). I told him he was wrong. He said the only way you could was with a GC. I said no and that I have shoot over 1000 rounds in my carbine up to 1900 fps, he said I bet you have leading and don't know it. Whatever. But I don't load for the 45/70, don't have one yet. I do have the Lyman 293 grain mold for a light 45/70 boolit and was wondering if any of you guys have a good load for this boolit. I'll tell him I will cast and lube him some boolits and go out with him and shoot them.
35 remington.
I didn't bet him, I'd just like to see what could be done. Sure I have had some minor leading but it never built up, if you shoot jacketed you get fouling too.

[35remington]

If you plan to shoot these at 1900 f/s, I would suggest your accuracy will be poor, and more than likely, depending upon the alloy, load and lube you use that you will indeed get some leading. I can suggest no 1400-1900 f/s smokeless loads with plainbase bullets that I can guarantee will shoot well and definitely not lead at all.

It's pretty difficult to get most plainbase bullets to shoot at all at over 1500 f/s. And yes, I'm speaking specifically about the 45/70.

Making a bet about a caliber you have yet to reload with plainbase bullets isn't a very good way to win a bet.

It's not always possible to claim that I have no leading whatsoever with plainbase bullets even with accurate loads. Many plainbase loads gas cut and lead somewhat but still shoot anyway.

Try 16 grains Unique for about 1400 fps. No guarantees about leading - there will probably be a minor amount depending upon bullet hardness. Should shoot decently well.

[Boerrancher]

That is why I started paper patching for my 45-70. I like shooting a case full of IMR 3100 behind a 340 gr boolit. Because of the way my 45-70 was made, it shoots 12 in high at 100 yds as per the Military Specs., at standard 45-70 velocities. I have to get up to around 2,000 fps to get it to shoot 1" High at 100 yds. Once again this load is not recommended with most of the 45-70's that are out there, except for custom ones and the Ruger No 1.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Gunlaker]

It's really hard to make a blanket statement like that. It depends on the alloy, the bullet, and on the rifle. Also it depends on what exactly is meant by leading.

I have a number of rifles in .45-70 and I can say that all of my loads seem give some leading, i.e. a light lead wash that comes out very easily with a couple of patches.

I can also say that I've shot bullets at more than 1400 fps with no _significant_ leading. i.e. I did not have to do any serious lead removal from the bore.

I've gone up to about 1600 fps with hard cast lead in one of my Marlins with no troubles. I have a Pedersoli that gets significant leading with lighter loads.

As an aside, I own a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt that I've never even got close to 1000 fps without significant leading.

I guess bottom line is, I think that it's not as simple as an absolute speed limit for cast bullets per caliber.

Chris.

[9.3X62AL]

1400 FPS is my "tip-over" point in both rifles and handguns where I start using gas-checked boolits exclusively. I start thinking "gas check" at 1200 FPS, and by 1400 it all goes via 'red cap'. Dimensional integrity and alloy strength give you some wiggle room, but life is just simpler if I stick to this rubric.

That said, the 45-70 at 1873 ballistics (405 grain plain base at 1300 FPS) can shoot all day with zero leading and fine accuracy in my Ruger #1. There are few better or more powerful cast boolit calibers for game animals than the 45-70. Even 135-year-old ballistics can still tip over critters right well.

[montana_charlie]

I told him he was wrong.

I ... was wondering if any of you guys have a good load for this ...

See what you've done?
You told the guy he's wrong even though you don't load for that cartridge.
Now, to save your bacon, you are asking us for the magic load that will prove you right.

I don't happen to have any idea what would make a 45/70 shoot that fast without problems...or why anybody would want to try. Maybe somebody else can help you out, but I suggest you start looking for the best spice mixture to use for flavoring 'crow'.
CM

[twotrees]

Over 48 gr of 3031. These are cast at Lyman #2 alloy spec and lubed with 50-50 alox. They shoot great out of my 1895 Marlin ( Ballard) If I shoot 405 gr commercial hard cast with hard blue lube, they go sideways through the paper at 100 yards.

For most of my Rifle loads and some pistol, I like most folks, use gas checked boolits. I had to try these in the Marlin and it worked!!!!!

Tell the "Expert" ( An X-Spert is a drip under pressure) that he must be shooting swagged stuff from the bullet box folks, as real cast, is much better than that.

Good Shootin,

[mto7464]

See what you've done?
You told the guy he's wrong even though you don't load for that cartridge.
Now, to save your bacon, you are asking us for the magic load that will prove you right.

I don't happen to have any idea what would make a 45/70 shoot that fast without problems...or why anybody would want to try. Maybe somebody else can help you out, but I suggest you start looking for the best spice mixture to use for flavoring 'crow'.
CM

I didn't tell him he could shoot them up to 1800 just that he could go over 1400 without a GC. Maybe I didn't splain that well enuff fer ya.

[44mag1]

I think this is funny. you make a bet and all the sudden no one else on this site wants to give up a load that wont lead past 1400 fps. I understand there are alot of variables, but I know ive shot lots of cast bullets in a 45-70 at or above 1400 fps without leading. It surely can be done.

[PatMarlin]

Here's one...

LEE 457-340-F w/39gr 4895milsurp ACWW LBT Blue lube OAL 2.585 with one ragged hole out of my Marlin guide gun @50.

[Gohon]

As an aside, I own a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt that I've never even got close to 1000 fps without significant leading.Chris.

Chris, I've got the same gun I purchased recently and I've put maybe 300 rounds of plain base 250 grain cast at a tad over 1,100 fps and about 150 rounds of 300 grain gas checked at about 1,590 fps with no leading. Guess there could or is some there but I can't see or tell if there is other than occasionally a slight gray wash the cleans right out. What do you think would make two identical guns act so differently?

[44man]

I don't know what that's all about. I shoot a PB boolit out of my 45-70 revolver at 1650 fps and never get leading. A few flakes on the first patch after 6 months of shooting, same as with a GC boolit.

[454PB]

The problem is the rifle, not the boolit or recipe. I've owned a few rifles that wouldn't allow a plain base over 1300 fps. without leading, and others that would.

My most recent 45/70 is a Marlin GS with Ballard rifling. It shoots the Lee 340 gr. pb cast from 75/25 WW/lino, sized .459" at 1400 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy. However, I wouldn't make any bets that it would do the same in somebody else's rifle.

[Gunlaker]

Chris, I've got the same gun I purchased recently and I've put maybe 300 rounds of plain base 250 grain cast at a tad over 1,100 fps and about 150 rounds of 300 grain gas checked at about 1,590 fps with no leading. Guess there could or is some there but I can't see or tell if there is other than occasionally a slight gray wash the cleans right out. What do you think would make two identical guns act so differently?

I think it's just got a rough barrel. It's always been a difficult gun to clean, even when I shot jacketed loads through it. Some have suggested that the bullets I'm shooting are too hard. (I don't have a lot of selection for cast bullets in my neck of the woods). They are sized properly though. I'm not too worried though. I use that rifle for plinking @ 50 yards. When I load 'em to just under 900fps they are very accurate.

Interestingly, my .45-70s love bullets from the same manufacturers. Not sure why that is....

Chris.

[Lead melter]

I think it's just got a rough barrel. It's always been a difficult gun to clean, even when I shot jacketed loads through it. Some have suggested that the bullets I'm shooting are too hard. (I don't have a lot of selection for cast bullets in my neck of the woods). They are sized properly though. I'm not too worried though. I use that rifle for plinking @ 50 yards. When I load 'em to just under 900fps they are very accurate.

Interestingly, my .45-70s love bullets from the same manufacturers. Not sure why that is....

Chris.

DO a web search for the David Tubb Final Finishing process. If memory serves, a kit can be purchased with different grades of abrasive dust that, when applied to jacketed bullets, might help with a rough bore.

Ya'll boys don't chew me out for the "J" word.

[rhead]

I shoot the Lee 405 grain hb made from 50 50 ww pure lead over 40 grains of 3031. (around 1425 1450)I cannot detect any leading but cannot swear that there is none. Personally I cannot shoot it much faster very many times without tearing up a littlle and that tends to spoil my groups.
I can't imagine anything that would require more power around here.

[mike in co]

I don't know what that's all about. I shoot a PB boolit out of my 45-70 revolver at 1650 fps and never get leading. A few flakes on the first patch after 6 months of shooting, same as with a GC boolit.

short bbl. does not run out of lube before it runs out of bbl......

mike in co

[PatMarlin]

Well one thing I do with my NEW rifles is an extensive shoot clean barrel break in program with low velocity copper. Over 100 rounds. Takes hours.

Maybe that's why my rifles do not lead easily.

[bishopgrandpa]

I will propably get static from this but look into Marshall Stanton's barrel lapping bullets. I have used them quite a bit and found barrels easier to clean and never did harm accuracy. I know the hype about throat erosion but the deer around here can't read and I have a lot of fun putting holes in paper over the summer. I am not a benchrest shooter and don't need or require that type of accuracy. Neither do most of you. The condition of the barrel and fit of the cast bullet will cure most any ills. Try the lapping bullets and get a proper sizing die after slugging the barrel. I BET that will help.

[Wayne Smith]

In summary, its the rifle barrel, and each is different, boolit fit, lube choice, and perhaps boolit composition that will determine if a particular rifle will or will not lead at any velocity. Clearly, from what Larry and others have posted in other places, higher velocities are possible with the right combination. It is equally possible that any particular gun/boolit/lube combination will lead at well less than 1400fps. Basically you won't know until you try that particular combination.