Ford battery powered pick-up

[1hole]

... depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc.

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.

This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies.

That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.

There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still.

Yeah. Still. ???

The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

[MaryB]

So.... don't know about all the rest of it, but depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc. This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies. There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still. The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

My solar panels(they are far cheaper than wind, more reliable and if you need more cloudy day power add more panels!) are going on 10 years old, they have paid for themselves even with a battery bank replacement at 7 years. It powers about 2/3 of my house needs and is NOT grid tied. I use that I produce on my own internal grid with the ability to drop back on grid if needed at each large electric power user, freezers, fridge, furnace/pellet stove, my ham radio gear is solar powered 24/7 except for amplifiers and they don't get used a lot except for the 2 meter amplifier that gets used every day. Plus my 24 volt lighting system! One of my neighbors asked after the last power outage, "how come you have bright lights during a power outage? We were making do with candles!". Umm you see the solar panels in the backyard? Now hey are paying me to design a small system that can be expanded, lighting, keep their freezer powered during an outage. Their generator refused to start, wonderful ethanol gas ate the fuel line... so now it needs a new carb and fuel lines and is a real piece of junk to begin with. He is tired of fixing it just to power a few lights and the freezer. They have emergency heat via wood stove so that is a power monster they don't have to feed in winter! And in winter solar panel output goes up! They like cold weather!

[MaryB]

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.



That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.



Yeah. Still. ???



Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

A 20x 10 foot area powers 2/3 of my house. I never clean my panels and no power output doesn't drop 50%, at best 5% plus rain washes them off now and then. I don't grid tie, I have my own mini grid to power critical loads, lights and my ham radio gear. I can drop back on grid any time. My system paid for itself in 7 years!

The large utility scale solar setups often have sheep grazing around and between them to keep grass and weeds short. Easy to livestock proof the wiring and the panels are high enough to walk under to not be blocked by MN winter snow. I had no tax subsidy to install my system, only way to get that is grid tie and pay idiotic fees to the power company. And my house battery takes up all of 6 x 3 feet of floor space. Just over 900 amp hours at 24 volts of lead acid batteries.I can go 3 days of total deep cloud cover/snow before needing to drop loads back on grid. Modern panels produce pretty well in low light conditions too. Give me 5 hours of sun and my battery bank is back to 80+% from being at 40% capacity(where my low voltage disconnect kicks in).

Solar works, panels on the roof are not that noticeable, grid tie is doable for a reasonable amount these days if you want to jump through the utility hoops and idiotic requirements like a million dollar liability policy "in case it damages their equipment"(never happen, power fails grid tie systems shut down, why I don't grid tie!).

Small wind works too but it more work, there is yearly maintenance, blades need replacing every 5-6 years due to leading edge erosion... lot of hobbyists and farmers have them now.

[megasupermagnum]

I've known people to run small things with solar panels, and they do work. The big ones like MaryB is talking, are also big money, almost as much as the property they are on. The only person I ever met who had one big enough to run their whole house are now in deep, deep trouble because they did some kind of special loan for it. I think it was called a PACE loan. Well, they got older, and can't afford their house anymore. Well they still owe a huge amount, and now can't sell the house. They can't make the payments, nobody is going to buy the place and take on all that debt. I never got an exact number out of them, but it sounded like the one they had, similar to the 10x20 MaryB describes, was around $50,000. Unless you are currently paying over $400 a month in electricity, I don't understand how these could ever pay for themselves.

On a large scale, solar and wind work much better, although it is far from a free lunch. South Dakota produces 83% of it's energy from wind, solar, and hydro (dams). It won't work as well in every state, but electric cars won't get you to the next major city and back in SD either.

[Daekar]

ive been told the break even comes at 15 to 20 years and thats up here where electrical rates are some of the highest in the country. Which ironical is about the time they need rebuilding. Add two more things to that. Technology improves. What you buy now will be obsolete in 10 years. Im 65 now and even 10 more is rolling the dice. Add to that i like my yard and the woods around me. I dont want an ugly solar array in my back yard or sitting up on my roof. Add to that maybe youd recoup more faster if you lived in AZ or ca but i live in northern michigan where we have WINTER!! In the winter its nothing for a week to go by with no sun. Heck even a month. NOPE right now TODAY at TODAYS technology level we have two choices. COAL AND NUKE. Bottom line too is raise your hand if you have 30k to lay out without taking out a second morgage. I own my home and am not borrowing on it so the bank owns it again. So ill pay my electric bill that the goverment will make more and more expensive with these pipe dreams. Ill heat that house with propane and wood. Ill drive a car and truck with a push rod v8 and a jeep with a push rod gas v6 because the v8 wranglers are just to expensive. Ill do this till the pry them from my cold dead fingers. If you want to do it another way then have at it but dont try to convince me your saving money or even more green then me. If evil Lloyd causes global warming which from what ive read wont even be noticeable for a 100 years so be it. My guess is my great great grandkids will be starving from overpopulation by them if there even is people. Some alien life forms will discover earth in 200 years and look at those solar pannels and wind generators and have a good laugh and say WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. No matter how it turns out it wont bother me. Ill be dead!

I think if I were 65, I would feel much more like you do. If you aren't going to live to see the ROI, then it's stupid to spend that money because you'll never come out ahead. Kind of like if I were building a new house it would be very very different from what we have, but I'm not, we have a house that will be paid off before I'm 45 and it doesn't already have a bunch of fancy-pants stuff built-in... and that's fine. Shoot, we even still have the old-style toilets that use lots of water with every flush, and shower heads without restrictors in them... but you know, the darn things work.

[Daekar]

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.



That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.



Yeah. Still. ???



Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

The scenario you describe is completely inaccurate by factors of 10. Maybe you needed a "solar field" and a "battery storage building" in the 1970s, but 50 years on you can fit the batteries on the wall in your garage and the solar cells on your roof.

Obviously industry has different needs from residential buildings, but don't be so determined to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because a power-hungry industrial plant or machine shop operation wouldn't have enough roof area to run itself doesn't mean the technology has no value.

[Lloyd Smale]

A 20x 10 foot area powers 2/3 of my house. I never clean my panels and no power output doesn't drop 50%, at best 5% plus rain washes them off now and then. I don't grid tie, I have my own mini grid to power critical loads, lights and my ham radio gear. I can drop back on grid any time. My system paid for itself in 7 years!

The large utility scale solar setups often have sheep grazing around and between them to keep grass and weeds short. Easy to livestock proof the wiring and the panels are high enough to walk under to not be blocked by MN winter snow. I had no tax subsidy to install my system, only way to get that is grid tie and pay idiotic fees to the power company. And my house battery takes up all of 6 x 3 feet of floor space. Just over 900 amp hours at 24 volts of lead acid batteries.I can go 3 days of total deep cloud cover/snow before needing to drop loads back on grid. Modern panels produce pretty well in low light conditions too. Give me 5 hours of sun and my battery bank is back to 80+% from being at 40% capacity(where my low voltage disconnect kicks in).

Solar works, panels on the roof are not that noticeable, grid tie is doable for a reasonable amount these days if you want to jump through the utility hoops and idiotic requirements like a million dollar liability policy "in case it damages their equipment"(never happen, power fails grid tie systems shut down, why I don't grid tie!).

Small wind works too but it more work, there is yearly maintenance, blades need replacing every 5-6 years due to leading edge erosion... lot of hobbyists and farmers have them now.

there lies the difference sue. You live around what you have and know you have a limit. Most people today cannot get by with a 120 volt load of 1800 watts or an 20 amp system to supply there whole home. Today even 100 watt entrances are going the way of the dinosaurs. Most new homes have 200 and even 300 watt systems. I doubt i could run two of my 3 freezers on 1800 watts let alone the two fridges and a water pump too. Id need a system 5 times the size of yours to get by.

Now our camp runs on solar off the grid. But we have a gas stove gas and wood heat gas hot water gas fridge. About the only thing electric are lights and the tv and even the lights have back up gas. Even then when we want to get serious like running a couple 120 power tools while building we are starting up a generator. Now that solar system was relatively cheap but another thing you have to factor in to most systems is the cost of a generator. Because most honest people on solar unless there filthy rich and dont care about recouping the cost of a huge blank check system will need a generator too.

Even at 2/3s of your load being taken care of by solar you still have to pay the expense of putting in either a generator that run a 1/3 of the load or pay to have a service drop transformer a meter panel service wire to your home and if you still use the utility you have to pay monthly service and meter charges just like the neighbor who doesnt have solar and today those add up to near half your bill. Yup if you can produce enough to sell back into the grid the power company has to pay you for it but they dont pay you back at the same rate they charge you. You pay retail they pay what they pay to buy it off the grid to sell it to you at a profit. Plus in some states if your selling back power to the utility you are suppose to pay taxes on that income. Something many dont realize. My take on it is this. If you can hook to the grid hook to the grid. If you want to play around with a small system have fun. If you live off the grid put in the best system you can afford and dont worry about recouping the cost of it because your off the grid and have nothing to compare it to. If it were truly a money saving no brainer there would be solar panels on 75 percent of the homes in this country. Nowbody likes paying for electricity. I worked in the industry for 30 years and will tell you flat out that the most hated bill other then child support and alimony that people have is there power bill. I dont know why because of all the bills you pay electricity is probably the most important commodity to your day to day life other then food and water. Just think look around your home and see how much of it is reliant on electricity.

[white eagle]

the United States needs to be careful who they get in bed with to produce this technology
China has most of the minerals and products to make these batteries and solar this and that
like most of our antibiotics and other medicines
so giving them more access to our power grid and into our very way of life is a calculated risk at best
if the current sell outs were not in office this may be a more feasible proposition however their interests are not
for the common good of the American people and China has their own interests in mind not helping out our nation.
Bidden has already crippled our nation by cutting our pipelines and making us more dependent on a country that hate's our nation

[MaryB]

I've known people to run small things with solar panels, and they do work. The big ones like MaryB is talking, are also big money, almost as much as the property they are on. The only person I ever met who had one big enough to run their whole house are now in deep, deep trouble because they did some kind of special loan for it. I think it was called a PACE loan. Well, they got older, and can't afford their house anymore. Well they still owe a huge amount, and now can't sell the house. They can't make the payments, nobody is going to buy the place and take on all that debt. I never got an exact number out of them, but it sounded like the one they had, similar to the 10x20 MaryB describes, was around $50,000. Unless you are currently paying over $400 a month in electricity, I don't understand how these could ever pay for themselves.

On a large scale, solar and wind work much better, although it is far from a free lunch. South Dakota produces 83% of it's energy from wind, solar, and hydro (dams). It won't work as well in every state, but electric cars won't get you to the next major city and back in SD either.

If they paid $50k they got ripped off! I have 16 panels at $150 each, copper wire to the house was $200, charge controller was $450, batteries $1k, inverters(I run multiple so I can control zones) $400 x 3, racking for the panels was maybe $200... less than $6,000 invested. My electric bill averaged $150/mo or $1800/yr... system paid for itself in 4 years, well 7 because I have gone thru a set of batteries.

I didn't install it to be green, I was tired of trying to start a generator when it was -20... easier to let my heat drop to battery, still have lights... heck I can even run my computer if I want!

[MaryB]

there lies the difference sue. You live around what you have and know you have a limit. Most people today cannot get by with a 120 volt load of 1800 watts or an 20 amp system to supply there whole home. Today even 100 watt entrances are going the way of the dinosaurs. Most new homes have 200 and even 300 watt systems. I doubt i could run two of my 3 freezers on 1800 watts let alone the two fridges and a water pump too. Id need a system 5 times the size of yours to get by.

Now our camp runs on solar off the grid. But we have a gas stove gas and wood heat gas hot water gas fridge. About the only thing electric are lights and the tv and even the lights have back up gas. Even then when we want to get serious like running a couple 120 power tools while building we are starting up a generator. Now that solar system was relatively cheap but another thing you have to factor in to most systems is the cost of a generator. Because most honest people on solar unless there filthy rich and dont care about recouping the cost of a huge blank check system will need a generator too.

Even at 2/3s of your load being taken care of by solar you still have to pay the expense of putting in either a generator that run a 1/3 of the load or pay to have a service drop transformer a meter panel service wire to your home and if you still use the utility you have to pay monthly service and meter charges just like the neighbor who doesnt have solar and today those add up to near half your bill. Yup if you can produce enough to sell back into the grid the power company has to pay you for it but they dont pay you back at the same rate they charge you. You pay retail they pay what they pay to buy it off the grid to sell it to you at a profit. Plus in some states if your selling back power to the utility you are suppose to pay taxes on that income. Something many dont realize. My take on it is this. If you can hook to the grid hook to the grid. If you want to play around with a small system have fun. If you live off the grid put in the best system you can afford and dont worry about recouping the cost of it because your off the grid and have nothing to compare it to. If it were truly a money saving no brainer there would be solar panels on 75 percent of the homes in this country. Nowbody likes paying for electricity. I worked in the industry for 30 years and will tell you flat out that the most hated bill other then child support and alimony that people have is there power bill. I dont know why because of all the bills you pay electricity is probably the most important commodity to your day to day life other then food and water. Just think look around your home and see how much of it is reliant on electricity.

The really big intermittent loads I leave on grid, like the water heater(planning on solar hot water next year though), shop equipment like compressor and welder/plasma cutter are better off ran off the grid(or if off grid a generator).

Grid tie regs vary by state, MN pays retail to buy electricity from small producers(homeowners) but they tack on fees and require an idiotic insurance policy of $1 million liability. So if I was going to grid tie I would have enough solar to pay those fees. Entire roof would be covered on the house and garage. But I hate dealing with the paperwork and hassle so I use what I produce and let the grid fill in. I might add 8 more panels and 4 more batteries to give me a wash as far as power needs go. And a big 240 volt inverter that can run the compressor/water heater/welder etc...

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry mary. I called you sue. Sue used to be on a different forum.

[Handloader109]

The really big intermittent loads I leave on grid, like the water heater(planning on solar hot water next year though), shop equipment like compressor and welder/plasma cutter are better off ran off the grid(or if off grid a generator).

Grid tie regs vary by state, MN pays retail to buy electricity from small producers(homeowners) but they tack on fees and require an idiotic insurance policy of $1 million liability. So if I was going to grid tie I would have enough solar to pay those fees. Entire roof would be covered on the house and garage. But I hate dealing with the paperwork and hassle so I use what I produce and let the grid fill in. I might add 8 more panels and 4 more batteries to give me a wash as far as power needs go. And a big 240 volt inverter that can run the compressor/water heater/welder etc...

So, not to denigrate you, but all you have done is to REDUCE your electric demand. You are NOT solar only, and while what you've done may work for you, it won't work for 99% of the population.
24v lighting and limited power just isnt on anyone's thoughts.

I see the scams advertised now on the local scale where just be getting the power company to pay you for your solar panels power generation. Scam. You borrow $20 to 50k and then get the power company who is forced to buy your unneeded power at full retail. Yes your bill is close to zero, but you pay the same if not way more to the solar panel company. and yes almost all panels have a 20 year life. so you might break even if you are lucky...



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

I know nothing about connecting solar panels to houses, but I really doubt anyone is re wiring their house for DC. All solar panels I've dealt with have been 12 volts as well, although that was small scale stuff, maybe they make panels for different voltages. Either way, inverters exist. There's no reason why you wouldn't run your DC voltage to an inverter, and get your normal 120 VAC to your house. Even my fish house has that.

Yes, beware the scams. It sounds like wind and solar both have rampant scammers ready to sell you something.

[pmer]

EVs will probably take off when they can standardize batteries and charging stations. Like cordless tools get a EV with two packs that can swap on the road. Have stations that you can drive in and swap in a charged pack and drive out. And have car only options with out a battery like a cordless tool only purchase assuming one might have extra power packs or pack leasing.

[jim147]

I know nothing about connecting solar panels to houses, but I really doubt anyone is re wiring their house for DC. All solar panels I've dealt with have been 12 volts as well, although that was small scale stuff, maybe they make panels for different voltages. Either way, inverters exist. There's no reason why you wouldn't run your DC voltage to an inverter, and get your normal 120 VAC to your house. Even my fish house has that.

Yes, beware the scams. It sounds like wind and solar both have rampant scammers ready to sell you something.

I've had several customer that have 12 volt lighting. It is not that uncommon. And I'm outside a town of 300.

Once it cools down I will do two buildings that way. Even if on grid it drops your bill.

I have many customers in this area with solar grids and generators. Our electricity is much better then it used to be but it is also more expensive. If my wife didn't want to sell this place in the next few years, I would go off grid.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Some folks wire in LED lighting using DC power, specifically because no city permits are needed, in many areas, for low voltage circuits - And, no electrician expenses. Friend is doing a "tiny house" that way for himself.

[Lloyd Smale]

bottom line is if it really worked and saved money and made sense there would be solar panels in every neighborhood in the country. What they are good for are people like mary who are willing to make sacrifices and even then most still need a grid hookup. Only people that can afford to be energy independent have money and are more concerned about being energy independent then actually saving money. I pay @2k a year to have power and the luxury of having whatever electrical convivence i want. Not just necessities but luxuries. It would take a serious solar system just to fire up my 1000 watt rcbs melting pot for 2 hours to cast some bullets.

I am 95 percent of America. Im 65 and love the fact that if im cold i can just turn up the thermostat and if i want my Mr coffee to be on all night. My two fridges and 3 freezers running all the time. Lights? hit a switch. Hot water. Open a faucet. I worked hard all my life to be to the point i dont have to worry about going out in a storm and starting my generator because the sun hasnt shinned in 10 days. Dont have to go out and cut a cord of firewood because my supply ran out because this winter was a bit tougher.

Nothing wrong with those who do. Some even enjoy it. Me? Id rather cast some bullets or go shooting. Now if i could spend 10k and use all the electricity i use today with no worry about conserving and that 10k would get me by for the next 10 years id be crunching numbers. Now im not talking 10k in material because lets be realistic. There might be a half a dozen here out of hundreds that have the knowlege and ability mary has to build and maintain a system that big. So the reality is that system that might cost mary 10k would cost most here twice that. So if i look at 20k for 10 years im loosing money. 20k for 15 years and im breaking even. That is if i can get enough kwh's out of a 20k system, dont have any issues with it that i have to call the repair man for and at 65 im rolling the dice that ill even be here for 15 more years.

Then lets throw one more monkey wrench into the system. What happens to people like Mary that have had to sacrifice already to get by when if the liberals stay in power we are forced to drive electric cars and trucks A system that powers a water pump and some dc load sure isnt going to charge a full sized pickup you need to haul firewood. Heck most homes hook up to the grid wont allow that without some major upgrades.

[rbuck351]

I have an all electric house and it costs about 2k a year to run everything including my shop ( air compressor, lathe, mill, power tools etc). The heating/cooling system is a geothermal heat pump (electric) and all else is electric (stove , 2 fridges, 3 freezers, water heater etc). I don't know what the solar panels, battery bank, converters, wiring etc would cost even if I installed it myself. Being 72 now, I don't think could possibly recover the cost in my life time. I'm not shy about turning on the heat or AC whenever I want.
I also have no use for an electric car. My old Chevy Cavalier gets about 30 mpg and is paid for so I don't see myself saving any money by buying an EV at what ever they cost. My old Dodge Cummins 3500 only gets 16/17 mpg but it will pull my trailer loaded at 10,000 lbs at highway speeds farther than any empty electric PU will go before charging. And then I can fill up in 5 min almost anywhere.
We are not at the point of replacing fossil fuels with electricity and won't be until battery tech and generating capacity gets a lot better. 20 30 years maybe but I'll be gone then and someone else can resist the stupidity.
Anyone that thinks an EV is no maintenance is missing the fact that an EV still has everything a gas car does except engine and transmission and those are replaced by a battery, electric motor and a bunch of switches and wiring most of which will wear out sooner or later.

[troyboy]

Mr Smale hit the nail on the head very early in this conversation. It's all about the few controlling the many. Evidently many contributing to this thread don't understand the meaning of his words or choose to ignore them. Nothing wrong with alternative energy but it is not about that......

[megasupermagnum]

I've had several customer that have 12 volt lighting. It is not that uncommon. And I'm outside a town of 300.

Once it cools down I will do two buildings that way. Even if on grid it drops your bill.

I have many customers in this area with solar grids and generators. Our electricity is much better then it used to be but it is also more expensive. If my wife didn't want to sell this place in the next few years, I would go off grid.

Why exactly would you do this? Are you rewiring the house with separate outlets and switches? Are you only installing switches and lights?