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Thread: Heavy slugs

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Heavy slugs

    I just got a Henry rifled slug gun in a trade, and since I don't hunt I don't really have a use for it other than fun.

    I thought it might be cool to shoot really heavy slugs out of it like an old stopping rifle. I was going to try the magtech brass cases but I realize now they are probably too wide on the inside to work with a bullet of groove diameter.

    As I see it the only option is the very expensive RMC cases, or loading in uncrimped plastic hulls.

    My plan now is to slug the bore and purchase a mold of an appropriate size bullet in the 900-1000 grain range, and load that on top of a case of black powder in either a 3" plastic or brass hull.

    Any thoughts? Any reason this wouldn't work? Has someone already done something like this before, maybe with smokeless? It would be hard to develop a safe load with smokeless working blind I suspect.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Sure, many of us have done similar, although not quite to 1000 grains. You don't need any special case if you don't want it, even a regular old 2 3/4" plastic case fold crimped has enough room. I've been very curious about the Henry slug gun. If you don't mind, can you take a few measurements of the OD of the barrel in a few spots? Also, how much does it weigh if you have a scale?

    You can use smokeless powder, but you have to know what you are doing. Blackpowder by comparison is about idiot proof. I couldn't even imagine how much black powder it would take to become dangerous, 200+ grains I'm sure, and I doubt you can fit that much in a normal shotgun shell.

    The twist rate of that Henry is such that you should be able to stabilize those heavy slugs at a reasonably slow velocity. With a 1000 grain slug, I think 900 fps is a realistic number. A much easier path is to choose a slightly lighter slug, so that you can find shot data for them. In a 12 gauge, that is going to be up to about 875 grains at the top end, and even more data in the 656 to 766 grain range. If you search a member called Turbo, he used to mess with 1000 grain slugs, and he had data listed. I messed with a 950 grain slug once, but I think it's getting into the territory of too much of a good thing. I was even shooting them out of a 10 pound Ultra slug hunter, and I'd bet your Henry is lighter than that. Unless you get a gun 15, and ideally closer to 20 pounds, these really strong loads are pretty ridiculous.

    If you go down to the special projects section of this forum, you will find a thread on someone shooting a "12 gauge from hell", essentially a 12 gauge full of rifle powder, yet running at reasonable pressures for a really strong gun, which I do NOT know if your Henry is up to. Anyway, you can find videos of him shooting super strong loads like 700+ grain slugs at 1600 fps up to I think he made it to 2200 fps or so in an Ultra slug hunter that he weighted to 14 pounds (don't quote me). The gist of it is, it makes a huge explosion on the targets, but the guys only ever shoot it ONCE. Numerous times I asked him to shoot a group with it, and after all this time he has refused. That should tell you.

    About the most fun you can have is a .735" round ball. You don't need to measure your groove diameter for these, as long as your groove is somewhere in the ballpark of .725" to .735", which it will be, they shoot really well. Cast these of a strong alloy, and if you want extra hardness, water drop them. They weigh around 580 grains, and are an absolute animal with a hefty charge of Bluedot. I've not tried them in a shotgun shell with blackpowder, but the idea is the same. The only wads you need are an X12X gas seal, and a nitro cards. They shoot really well, better than most slugs I've tried. Penetration of these is on par with most solid 45-70 loads, but leave a gaping hole. The only deer I shot with them dropped on the spot with a nice big hole through the lungs.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Is this your gun?

    www.henryusa.com/shotgun/single-shot-slug-barrel-shotgun/

    At under 7lbs you may only shoot one of those 1,000gr slugs! I don't think it's going to be much "fun"!

    I'm looking to go the other way, light for caliber zinc slugs like the Lyman pellet slug.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    What msm said.

    Do a search for turbo1889. He posted info on a few heavy slugs along with load data IIRC.

    Also do a search for 12bore (Greg Sappington). He had a mould made to cast a 1043gr. Keith style SWC. He loaded to about 1000/1100 fps and said recoil was quite tolerable and penetration was outstanding!

    I think he posted load data for it as well. I have that load data if he didn't post it here.

    My inclination is for the old Kynoch Paradox bullet at 740 grs. Those have a large radius groove that a plastic hull can be "crimped" into to hold the slug. IIRC Ross Seyfried did that for his Paradox gun. I know I have seen it done.

    CBE makes a faithful Paradox slug mould.

    If you want heavy look to Accurate Molds. Tom has a good selection of full bore slug molds.

    Longbow

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Sure, many of us have done similar, although not quite to 1000 grains. You don't need any special case if you don't want it, even a regular old 2 3/4" plastic case fold crimped has enough room. I've been very curious about the Henry slug gun. If you don't mind, can you take a few measurements of the OD of the barrel in a few spots? Also, how much does it weigh if you have a scale?

    You can use smokeless powder, but you have to know what you are doing. Blackpowder by comparison is about idiot proof. I couldn't even imagine how much black powder it would take to become dangerous, 200+ grains I'm sure, and I doubt you can fit that much in a normal shotgun shell.

    The twist rate of that Henry is such that you should be able to stabilize those heavy slugs at a reasonably slow velocity. With a 1000 grain slug, I think 900 fps is a realistic number. A much easier path is to choose a slightly lighter slug, so that you can find shot data for them. In a 12 gauge, that is going to be up to about 875 grains at the top end, and even more data in the 656 to 766 grain range. If you search a member called Turbo, he used to mess with 1000 grain slugs, and he had data listed. I messed with a 950 grain slug once, but I think it's getting into the territory of too much of a good thing. I was even shooting them out of a 10 pound Ultra slug hunter, and I'd bet your Henry is lighter than that. Unless you get a gun 15, and ideally closer to 20 pounds, these really strong loads are pretty ridiculous.

    If you go down to the special projects section of this forum, you will find a thread on someone shooting a "12 gauge from hell", essentially a 12 gauge full of rifle powder, yet running at reasonable pressures for a really strong gun, which I do NOT know if your Henry is up to. Anyway, you can find videos of him shooting super strong loads like 700+ grain slugs at 1600 fps up to I think he made it to 2200 fps or so in an Ultra slug hunter that he weighted to 14 pounds (don't quote me). The gist of it is, it makes a huge explosion on the targets, but the guys only ever shoot it ONCE. Numerous times I asked him to shoot a group with it, and after all this time he has refused. That should tell you.

    About the most fun you can have is a .735" round ball. You don't need to measure your groove diameter for these, as long as your groove is somewhere in the ballpark of .725" to .735", which it will be, they shoot really well. Cast these of a strong alloy, and if you want extra hardness, water drop them. They weigh around 580 grains, and are an absolute animal with a hefty charge of Bluedot. I've not tried them in a shotgun shell with blackpowder, but the idea is the same. The only wads you need are an X12X gas seal, and a nitro cards. They shoot really well, better than most slugs I've tried. Penetration of these is on par with most solid 45-70 loads, but leave a gaping hole. The only deer I shot with them dropped on the spot with a nice big hole through the lungs.

    Thanks for the info! Yeah I dont expect to shoot it a lot, more just for fun or to let others have fun with, you know

    I'm not looking to turn it into a super magnum, like nyfirefighter said it's probably too light to ever want to do that anyway, just want to mess around.

    I can take some measurements for you sure, it's got a pretty thick barrel which is why I'm even considering this.

  6. #6
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    What msm said.

    Do a search for turbo1889. He posted info on a few heavy slugs along with load data IIRC.

    Also do a search for 12bore (Greg Sappington). He had a mould made to cast a 1043gr. Keith style SWC. He loaded to about 1000/1100 fps and said recoil was quite tolerable and penetration was outstanding!

    I think he posted load data for it as well. I have that load data if he didn't post it here.

    My inclination is for the old Kynoch Paradox bullet at 740 grs. Those have a large radius groove that a plastic hull can be "crimped" into to hold the slug. IIRC Ross Seyfried did that for his Paradox gun. I know I have seen it done.

    CBE makes a faithful Paradox slug mould.

    If you want heavy look to Accurate Molds. Tom has a good selection of full bore slug molds.

    Longbow
    A keith SWC is exactly what I was thinking! Do you know who made his mold or if a drawing exists so I can have accurate make me one? I searched but couldn't find anything about him.

    Getting the load data would be excellent as well.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Not sure about a drawing but I have pics of the mould I'll look up and post.

    Here is a link to one of his posts on shotgunworld:

    https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/vie...32539&start=20

    And here's a pic of the mould cavity:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Listed as both 1043 grains and 1143 grains so not sure which is correct offhand but heavy either way!

    The link to the shotgunworld post above has the same load data I have.

    Greg didn't send me a mould drawing, just pics and info so not sure if he has the drawing or not. He hasn't posted here for quite a while and I haven't heard from him for a couple of years now. If you want a mould, Tom at Accurate can likely make a mould to match the pic. Alternately the pic can be imported into a CAD program like AutoCAD and "traced" then scaled to correct diameter. After that dimensions can be adjusted to give you the design and weight you want. He shows several slugs over 1000 grs. in his catalogue though nothing quite like Greg's design. Tom can make what you want though.

    Here is what I was saying about the big "crimp" groove for Paradox slugs:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Those would be paper hulls but same can be done with plastic hulls.

    The Paradox slugs are only 740 grs. so lighter than what you want but historically correct! I have a copy of the Kynoch drawing if you want it. Tom should be able to come very close to original design and CBE in Australia makes a mould.

    Longbow
    Last edited by longbow; 07-17-2021 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Added pics and info

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks longbow, that is extremely helpful! I sent a message to Greg asking for some info, a drawing if he has it or if not some basic measurements of the slug and I can extrapolate from there. Failing that I could take some measurements from the photo and go from there.

    I was going to scale up an existing bullet to the right size but I thought I might end up with some funky results, the lube groove being one. That photo confirmed my suspicions, the lube groove is much smaller relative to the rest of the bullet than a smaller diameter projectile.

    The next hurdle is a sizing die, either for a lube sizer or a push through type, any way to get one that size, or is this a shoot as cast situation?

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Loading that slug with anything beyond the trajectory of a brick is gonna knock you flat, then stomp you. But I understand the impulse....Everybody's gotta learn their own lessons.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    I cast a few heavies. Accurate molds do make some wonderful stuff.

    Here’s a couple heavy hitters:







    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Here’s some more 800+ grain slugs I pressure tested for a game warden from Montana. These are hard cast and was shot into 200lbs of wet sand from 12 yards, the avg distance he has to dispatch a bear:









    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    Wow that is some impressive performance, until I started looking into this I had no idea what shotguns were capable of with standard pressures. I figured I'd be stuck with black powder and would never be able to use smokeless with such a heavy slug, but now I think I could just use smokeless after finding all the data and testing that's been done.

    Yeah I know it probably will hurt like no other to shoot, but I still want to try. Like you say I want to experience it for myself

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    And for those interested, some measurements;

    Muzzle OD .997
    Breech OD 1.100

    Groove .727
    Bore .719

    And it weighs 7lbs 2 oz

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    That's a nice heavy barrel. The thickness has no bearing on safety, even thin barrels (within reason) can handle some very strong pressures. What it really gets you is a barrel less prone to any kind of stress or heat AKA, more accurate. That and the heavier the barrel, the more the entire gun weighs, which is a good thing. I'm surprised they only weigh a little over 7 pounds. If I were you, I would take the recoil pad off, and fill that stock hole with all the lead shot that can fit. If it felt too rear heavy, I'd put a bipod on the sling stud.

    Certainly don't be afraid to use blackpowder. Get yourself some Goex Fg (Goex Olde Eynsford Fg can be even better), and you can make some fantastic ammo with that. Blackpowder is also in stock some places right now, where most any good smokeless powder for the very heavy slugs is going to be hard to get. The main powder for very heavy slugs is Bluedot, although there is some data out there for STEEL and 800X. I'm no fan of Longshot, and very heavy slugs is definitely not a place I would use it. Longshot is at it's best with light payloads at very high velocity.

    I sold my Accurate 73-934CN. I couldn't get it to shoot well. I still have an Accurate 73-770S, and that one shoots very well. About the only thing I can fault on the design, is it has a relatively small flat nose on it. It seems kind of a waste to me to send such a freight train down range with a relative needle point on it. In actuality, it is probably so blunt, it would act like a big round nose anyway. Of Accurate's "super heavy 12 ga SWC's", I'd say the most practical is going to be the 73-820S. They are all going to be slow freight trains, so you may as well shoot one that is going to slap your target. Some of them are extremely blunt, as to really be full wadcutter's. I'd be worried those very blunt ones wouldn't be very accurate at 100 yards. I still say you should get a .735" ball mold too. Buy from JT Ball moulds, and order a .738", which should drop about .735". A round ball is exceptionally accurate, about as effective as you can get for hunting, aren't a lightweight at all yet are still a reasonable weight for shooting, and best of all they fall right from the mold. Pistol shooters talk about bullets that rain from the mold, well they don't have anything compared to how easy a round ball cast's. If you really hate yourself that much, there is no rule that says you can't shoot two balls at once for a total of about 1160 grains.

    Bullet lube for slugs is about as forgiving as you can get. I've shot over 50 of those Accurate 73-770S's without any lube at all. That was an as-cast slug, dry as a bone, and I got no leading. A lot of times I'll do a single tumble coat in either Lee Alox or White Lubes Alox. That works great, and is super easy. You could pan or dip lube the slugs in normal wax bullet lube, but that is a lot of work for nothing. Some guys powder coat their slugs, and it too works, although I wouldn't start coating only for slugs, as there is no benefit. If you already powder coat bullets, then by all means, coat your slugs.

    P.S. if you got those ID barrel measurements with a calipers, chances are very good your groove is actually .729". Henry barrels are generally very close to SAMMI spec, and I would expect no different from a slug barrel. You can go quite oversized on slugs if you want with no issues. Since there is no throat in a shotgun, and the bores are so large, the size of the slug doesn't matter much. I'd definitely get it at least groove diameter, but it doesn't really matter if it is .002" larger or .005" or even .010" larger than that. By about .740", they start to get hard to chamber though. If ordering from Accurate, I'd order .730" +.002" tolerance.
    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 07-19-2021 at 08:22 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    So before I try anything heavy I'm going to play around with lighter slugs first just to be sure. I'm ordering some .735 roundballs and another member is going to send me some heavier slugs.

    I do still think the 1000+ grain is a possibility though, and to that end since I couldn't find any info beyond that photo of the heavy slug I went ahead and made a CAD file of the slug based on the photo so I could possibly have one made at a later date. Looks like it will be pretty cool. I was going to change it to be more of a real SWC, but I didn't think it would really make a difference in a shotgun shell so I left the nose as is.


    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    That's not a bad drawing, although I don't think you will have any use for a double crimp groove. Nothing you do will get you to the rifling, which at best is about 3/4" from the start of the forcing cone, and your case mouth is likely not exactly to the forcing cone either. There's no performance to be gained. If you get custom RMC shells, which RMC is going out of business, you will have excess powder space no matter what. There's nothing wrong with a truncated cone nose, and your meplat looks good and proportional.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    That's not a bad drawing, although I don't think you will have any use for a double crimp groove. Nothing you do will get you to the rifling, which at best is about 3/4" from the start of the forcing cone, and your case mouth is likely not exactly to the forcing cone either. There's no performance to be gained. If you get custom RMC shells, which RMC is going out of business, you will have excess powder space no matter what. There's nothing wrong with a truncated cone nose, and your meplat looks good and proportional.
    The crimp grooves were just in the original mold so I included them, I suspected they wouldn't help either, except perhaps with allowing excess metal someplace to flow, but I don't know about that.

    Perhaps eliminating the crimp grooves and doubling up on the lube groove or adding another smaller lube groove would help if I end up shooting any of these with black powder.

    I didn't know RMC was going out of business, I was intending to do all of this with plastic hulls, because it seems like they work just fine, but I may have to order 10 cases just to have them. They would certainly look more impressive

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Yes RMC will soon close their doors. If you want them, get them ASAP. I would either make that slug with three grease grooves, or one crimp groove and two grease grooves. I personally believe a number of grooves help for the reason you describe. They allow metal to displace somewhere. I forgot to mention that with blackpowder you can pan lube them, and a simple lube is 50/50 beeswax and Crisco or olive oil. Alternatively, you can add a grease cookie under the slug. The simplest way might be to simply use a lube soaked wool wad under the slug.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Here's an edit, I think it looks a little better really, more like a shotgun slug.Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    I'm going to play around with the design some since I have some time before I will order the big mold, but I did go ahead an order a ball mold from JT since it sounds like a round ball is pretty versatile.

    Originally I was going to order a few pre cast ones just to test but I realized they are probably pure lead for a muzzleloader and that likely wouldn't work well.

    I shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders so I have plenty of lube for the bullets, and 2 lube sizers but I don't think a die could be made for either unfortunately. It looks like I'll have to have someone custom make me a push through sizer or else just shoot them as cast. The bullets that is, not the round balls.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check