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Thread: Heavy slugs

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have a couple of 12 bore rifles and I use the CBE mold at about 740 Gr, a friend of mine has an early CBE hollow point mold I think it drops a about 900 Gr he is happy with the results.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'd be inclined to use tumble lube grooves or multiple small lube grooves and narrow driving bands. Tumble lube or pan lube should work well.

    Nothing wrong with the 2nd drawing though. That's a good looking slug.

    I'll be watching for range reports in the not too distant future!

    Longbow

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I'd be inclined to use tumble lube grooves or multiple small lube grooves and narrow driving bands. Tumble lube or pan lube should work well.

    Nothing wrong with the 2nd drawing though. That's a good looking slug.

    I'll be watching for range reports in the not too distant future!

    Longbow
    I want to keep the option of using black powder open so tumble lube grooves wouldn't work.

    I'm still playing with it though, so I'll have to see how one with smaller lube grooves looks, maybe shrink the bottom groove and add a small one up top that can do double duty as a crimp groove.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master

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    For BP I'd think a lube cookie or lubed felt wad under the slug would be the best way to go. I doubt you'll get enough lube in "normal" lube grooves to keep fouling soft. The old Paradox slug style with the giant groove should hold enough lube... kinda like an oversize collar button! For hunting or defense, not an issue because you're not likely to take many shots but to go to the range and shoot a few rounds I am thinking you'll need a lot of lube.

    Keep us posted on whatever you do and how it all works out. Interesting project!

    Longbow

  5. #25
    Boolit Master


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    I don't have a slug in the tumble lube style, but I have two pistol, sold one pistol, and have one rifle molds with tumble lube sides. I'll be brutally honest, I think they are useless. The idea being that they hold more tumble lube than a normal bullet, might be true, but who cares? A normal bullet works not just ok, but really well with tumble lube. If you need more lube, you do another coat. I see no advantage at all to a tumble lube style bullet. I designed one bullet like that for the simple reason I thought they might function as a bunch of crimp grooves. I'm not convinced they work any better than a smooth sided bullet for that. I have never seen a tumble lube style bullet shoot very well. I had both Lee 41 magnum molds, the 195 gr traditional style lubed SWC, and the 210 gr tumble lube style SWC. The 195 gr shot ok, not fantastic, but acceptable. The 210 gr shoots like garbage. That's with both being lubed with Alox tumble lube.

    Based on my experiences, I will always opt for a normal lubed bullet. They are more versatile, being able to use all types of lube. They are generally more accurate. And if you ever sell the mold, they are easiest to sell.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The reason I suggested a tumble lube style was not for lube but for metal displacement. I didn't mention that. The slug can be larger than groove diameter but with the small contact area at each peak and lots of grooves there is lots of room for lead to swage. Multiple narrow bands and grooves like a Loverin style boolit should work the same.

    Just thinking that a large/long slug with lots of bearing surface and wide driving bands might result in higher pressure with all that lead being swaged to bore and groove.

    Having said that, Greg's heavy slug design uses conventional grooves and he apparently got good accuracy from it.

    Maybe not an issue.

    For BP though I think a lot of lube is in order so lube cookie or lubed wad under the slug would be a good idea. When I tried BP under round balls many years ago I got a lot of hard fouling if there wasn't a healthy dose of lube. That was smoothbore, not rifled gun.

    Longbow

  7. #27
    Boolit Master


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    What he has drawn is a hefty payload of bullet lube. It may not look like much, but I wouldn't be surprised that holds almost 10 grains of lube. I shot the 73-770S lubed with my 50-50 lube. Fouling was no problem at all with Goex Fg. Accuracy was good too, and recoil was very reasonable at 100 grains of powder. If I took all the wads out, you could probably get 150 grains in a 2 3/4" case with that slug, maybe a little more.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That 73-770S is a good looking slug too. Those look like pretty large lube grooves so should carry a lot.

    Call me a heretic but I found that I got better results using FFFg than Fg or FFg in the 12 ga. I used to have a Pedersoli side by as well and used FFFg in that too. I don't recall what powder granulation I was using with the round balls in cartridges over BP but I do remember the ugly build up of hard fouling! I wound up putting a lube cookie under the balls and that pretty much solved it.

    Regardless, a good BP lube will be in order. The fireball and smoke is a lot of fun! To add to it I had a Pow-R-Pac choke with muzzle brake on that gun and it had a 20" barrel... that added to the fireball! I was loading 110 grs. of BP under 0.690" RB's. Not very accurate but fun to shoot.

    Longbow

  9. #29
    Final edit, I do agree this one looks better, and more versatile if I ever needed a crimp groove. Should carry plenty of lube. Weight in pure lead will be 1084 gr.Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #30
    Boolit Master


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    I don't see anything wrong with that. You would probably want to cast them of something other than pure lead, although pure lead will work. With clip on wheel weights, they might be real close to 1000 grains. That's a lot of mass heading down range. They might not blow up a water bottle like a 300 win mag can, but boy, I don't think you can drink enough milk in a year to get enough water jugs to stop one of those monsters.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. You would probably want to cast them of something other than pure lead, although pure lead will work. With clip on wheel weights, they might be real close to 1000 grains. That's a lot of mass heading down range. They might not blow up a water bottle like a 300 win mag can, but boy, I don't think you can drink enough milk in a year to get enough water jugs to stop one of those monsters.
    For sure I'll use harder lead, the weight in pure lead is just a reference, since pure leads density is easy to find. The image should also say the volume is .378 cubic inches, not density, I made a typo.

    Don't know how much fun they'll be to actually fire but there's only one way to find out. I sent the design off to Tom so soon anyone else will be able to join me in the pain, lol.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanka16 View Post
    For sure I'll use harder lead, the weight in pure lead is just a reference, since pure leads density is easy to find. The image should also say the volume is .378 cubic inches, not density, I made a typo.

    Don't know how much fun they'll be to actually fire but there's only one way to find out. I sent the design off to Tom so soon anyone else will be able to join me in the pain, lol.
    There is another much cheaper way to find out. Buy a 5 round package of Brenneke 3" Magnum Crush Slugs.

    These are 1 1/2 oz (655 gr) slugs with a MV of 1604 Fps! You will only fire one! But you will have 4 left in case Jurassic Park ever comes to fruition.

    What you want to do will probably break your shoulder.

    Guns to fire that big a round would need to weigh in excess of 12-14 lbs.

    I'm more of a "Low Recoil Kind of Guy," and there is little that will live thru a 1 oz slug at 1200 fps.

    My .02 on this subject.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  13. #33
    Boolit Master


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    It won't break his shoulder, it just won't be pleasant. I've never been able to get my hands on those Breneke gold crush's. Those are by far the most powerful factory slug you can buy for a 12 gauge. If you just want to get a taste of recoil, one slug you can find in a lot of stores is the Federal 3" 1 1/4oz powershok slug at 1600 fps. Fire one of those in a 5 1/4 pound H&R single shot, and you see a flash before your eyes... and it isn't muzzle flash.

    By my calculations, that Federal 1 1/4 oz slug in this Henry should be just over 52 ft/lb recoil. By comparison, a 1000 grain slug at 900 fps would be 55 ft/lb, pretty close. I'm sure you can get to 1000 fps safely with that slug, which would put you up to just over 65 ft/lb. That should be squarely in the 458 caliber elephant rifle territory.

  14. #34
    I'm planning to add some weight to it, some lead in the stock and I have a LPVO with some good eye relief I'll try and see if that will work safely. My goal is 9-10 lbs, just to increase the comfort some.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    Why not powder coat the slug? Even soft lead wont sag or lean at 375 - 400 degrees unless the its a hollow base with a thin skirt. I've seen some really impressive PC jobs that held up under some hard core testing.

    Scott
    Scott

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by dsh1106 View Post
    Why not powder coat the slug? Even soft lead wont sag or lean at 375 - 400 degrees unless the its a hollow base with a thin skirt. I've seen some really impressive PC jobs that held up under some hard core testing.

    Scott
    I've shot some PC bullets and I have a friend that does that so I'll probably end up taking some to him for that treatment.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Recoil might not be that horrendous using the IMR4227 data Greg gives in that Shotgunworld post. He told me that if velocity was under 1100 FPS recoil wasn't too bad. I'll wait for you to confirm that though.

    Ed Hubel posted some very hefty IMR4227 load data in his thread but seems to me it was for lighter slugs at rather impressive velocities.

    Either way... I say a thick padded jacket would be an asset!

    Longbow

  18. #38
    Has anyone tried 2400 powder? I see blue dot recommended a lot but I don't have any and like everything it's impossible to find. I have 4227 for the heavier loads but I wanted to try some of the lighter loads first and I have a bunch of 2400 powder.

  19. #39
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    To be honest, there is no reason 2400 would not make a fine slug powder for heavy loads, but you will not find any data for it. I can not recommend anyone use 2400 powder, as I've never used it myself. It is a powder with almost no data in shotguns. There's probably some .410 data, maybe 28 gauge, but I really doubt you will find any 20 gauge or larger data.

    You will not find any published 4227 data either. Ed Hubel didn't seem too keen on 4227, and I take that as a good reason not to mess with it. It could probably work, but why bother?

    Bluedot is going to be the most forgiving powder, it is hard to undercharge with a slug this heavy. There is very little chance of of a blooper. It is also forgiving on the top end, as you would have to be pretty reckless to get into dangerous territory if you are following load data at all. There is also a ton of data out there for Bluedot, although you are going to be looking for 2 1/4 oz data, which is only going to be found in a 3 1/2" shell. I believe this will be ok, since a slug is a lot more compact than shot.

    A number of members are having good luck with STEEL powder. STEEL is kind of like if 800x and Bluedot had a baby. It has huge flakes like 800x, but has a ton of retardant coating to slow down the burn even slower than Bluedot. There isn't a ton of data for STEEL, but you will find some data for the super heavy stuff like 2 1/4 oz turkey loads. As the name implies, it is mainly for steel shot, which you can not use that data.

    800X is a slightly faster powder, similar to longshot, but a lot more controllable. I'm sure 800x would work well for this, but this isn't the powder I'd be trying to push past 1000 fps. I'd actually say to stay at 900 fps with this just to be safe, as I don't think you will find any 2 1/4 data.

    Longshot is a very odd powder. Some burn charts show it being slow like Bluedot, some show it almost as fast as Herco. Longshot is a fine ball powder, that has a bunch of retardants to slow it down, and make it burn more progressively. I can not recommend longshot for a slug like this. Where longshot shines is if you want to send say a 1 ounce slug at 1600+ fps. It loves speed, but it is also prone to problems at the lower end, and is probably the worst powder for bloopers. Longshot also seems to raise pressures greatly with heavier payloads. While Longshot is a speed demon at 1 ounce, almost unmatched by any other powder, by 1 1/2 ounce, 800x is actually shooting faster.

    My recommendation is if you cant find Bluedot, STEEL, or 800x, then go to blackpowder. Any real blackpowder will work. I'm not sure I'd mess with any of the substitutes. Maybe Pyrodex if you were really desperate. Since you already shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders, I'm guessing you are familiar with the various choices. My preference is Goex Fg. If what you have is FFg or FFFg, use that.

  20. #40
    4227 is what Greg (12 bore) used for his test and posted some data, I found where Ed mentioned using it as well, but not as much as he talked about really slow powders, like reloder 17 or 26. But I dont feel like burning 100 grains of powder every shot, lol.

    The first mold I'll likely have in hand is the roundball mold, which is about 1 3/8 oz, so I'm trying to find some suitable powder for that. I'm really hoping I can find some blue dot, since it seems preferred and I don't have either 800x or steel. I've never even seen Steel for sale in my local stores, but to be fair I've never looked.

    Even though I inherited my grandfathers Mec 9000 I've never really reloaded shotshell, outside of when I used his machine when I was a kid and he set it up.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check