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Thread: Heavy slugs

  1. #41
    Failing that I do have lots of FFg and FFFg to use.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    There is another much cheaper way to find out. Buy a 5 round package of Brenneke 3" Magnum Crush Slugs.

    These are 1 1/2 oz (655 gr) slugs with a MV of 1604 Fps! You will only fire one! But you will have 4 left in case Jurassic Park ever comes to fruition.

    What you want to do will probably break your shoulder.

    Guns to fire that big a round would need to weigh in excess of 12-14 lbs.

    I'm more of a "Low Recoil Kind of Guy," and there is little that will live thru a 1 oz slug at 1200 fps.

    My .02 on this subject.

    Randy



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  3. #43
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    To be honest, there is no reason 2400 would not make a fine slug powder for heavy loads, but you will not find any data for it. I can not recommend anyone use 2400 powder, as I've never used it myself. It is a powder with almost no data in shotguns. There's probably some .410 data, maybe 28 gauge, but I really doubt you will find any 20 gauge or larger data.

    You will not find any published 4227 data either. Ed Hubel didn't seem too keen on 4227, and I take that as a good reason not to mess with it. It could probably work, but why bother?

    Bluedot is going to be the most forgiving powder, it is hard to undercharge with a slug this heavy. There is very little chance of of a blooper. It is also forgiving on the top end, as you would have to be pretty reckless to get into dangerous territory if you are following load data at all. There is also a ton of data out there for Bluedot, although you are going to be looking for 2 1/4 oz data, which is only going to be found in a 3 1/2" shell. I believe this will be ok, since a slug is a lot more compact than shot.

    A number of members are having good luck with STEEL powder. STEEL is kind of like if 800x and Bluedot had a baby. It has huge flakes like 800x, but has a ton of retardant coating to slow down the burn even slower than Bluedot. There isn't a ton of data for STEEL, but you will find some data for the super heavy stuff like 2 1/4 oz turkey loads. As the name implies, it is mainly for steel shot, which you can not use that data.

    800X is a slightly faster powder, similar to longshot, but a lot more controllable. I'm sure 800x would work well for this, but this isn't the powder I'd be trying to push past 1000 fps. I'd actually say to stay at 900 fps with this just to be safe, as I don't think you will find any 2 1/4 data.

    Longshot is a very odd powder. Some burn charts show it being slow like Bluedot, some show it almost as fast as Herco. Longshot is a fine ball powder, that has a bunch of retardants to slow it down, and make it burn more progressively. I can not recommend longshot for a slug like this. Where longshot shines is if you want to send say a 1 ounce slug at 1600+ fps. It loves speed, but it is also prone to problems at the lower end, and is probably the worst powder for bloopers. Longshot also seems to raise pressures greatly with heavier payloads. While Longshot is a speed demon at 1 ounce, almost unmatched by any other powder, by 1 1/2 ounce, 800x is actually shooting faster.

    My recommendation is if you cant find Bluedot, STEEL, or 800x, then go to blackpowder. Any real blackpowder will work. I'm not sure I'd mess with any of the substitutes. Maybe Pyrodex if you were really desperate. Since you already shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders, I'm guessing you are familiar with the various choices. My preference is Goex Fg. If what you have is FFg or FFFg, use that.
    Lightfield used to make the only factory 3.5” 12 ga slug. That packed a wallop.

    I wouldn’t mess with 800x for a slug that heavy. Before I got my pressure trace 2, I sent some fury slugs off to Precision Reloading for pressure testing (there’s a thread on here about it).

    That slug is 580 grs and I was way over pressured with what I though was a modest charge of 35 grs. I use 37 grs for the Hammerhead slug and it’s within pressure. Difference is, I built up a hard launch slug column for the fury slug where the hammerhead slug uses that SPW wad with a crush section.


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  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy 358429's Avatar
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    You guys are tough and adventurous.

    Especially the shoulder pockets! Shooting gunstock cracking loads like that!

    This talk of thousand grain semiwadcutter bullets at thousand plus feet per second has me captivated.

    I am shooting 170 grain semiwadcutter bullets target shooting. My bullets are so little! Haha!

    Are you shooting steel plates to watch them get bent, like bottle caps in my fingers?

    I wonder how much it would swing, if you shot the ballistic pendulum (large log suspended by ropes).

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 358429 View Post
    You guys are tough and adventurous.

    Especially the shoulder pockets! Shooting gunstock cracking loads like that!

    This talk of thousand grain semiwadcutter bullets at thousand plus feet per second has me captivated.

    I am shooting 170 grain semiwadcutter bullets target shooting. My bullets are so little! Haha!

    Are you shooting steel plates to watch them get bent, like bottle caps in my fingers?

    I wonder how much it would swing, if you shot the ballistic pendulum (large log suspended by ropes).

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    Well, these aren't THAT crazy of loads. There's still a number of big game rifles that are worse. What always gets me is somebody with a 45-70 or similar comes by and starts touting all this about sectional density, that they are so big, they don't need to expand. There was even a guy on here once that refused to say shotgun like it was some bad word. We were discussing the usual hot topics, defensive shooting of large things, probably brown bear or similar. He kept calling them "birdguns", and how weak they are compared to a 45-70.

    I'll admit there are rifled slugs made for deer hunting that don't penetrate that fantastically. Once you see what a solid slug like a 1 1/8 oz Brenneke can do, your jaw will drop. A 45 caliber solid will kill, but a 12 gauge slug blows a hole at least 3 times the size of what a 45 does.

    As far as impressiveness on targets, yes. These will turn water jugs to vapor like the highest velocity rifles. They will flip a steel plate around like no other round I know of.

  6. #46
    Almost like Henry knew some crazy fool like me would be attempting what I'm about to, the stock was already nicely hollowed out. After filling it with shot it weighs just over 9lbs, the scope I plan to install weighs a little under a pound with rings so total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanka16 View Post
    Almost like Henry knew some crazy fool like me would be attempting what I'm about to, the stock was already nicely hollowed out. After filling it with shot it weighs just over 9lbs, the scope I plan to install weighs a little under a pound with rings so total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.

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    If this is your first single shot Henry, you will like it. What is the trigger pull, if you have a gauge? Guess if you don't. The triggers were flat out garbage when they first came out, but the recall really got their game together. I personally think Henry knocked it out of the park with these, but are sitting firm without fully taking advantage with what they have. The hinge pin alone is worth the money for these, it's the best designed break action hinge I've ever seen. If we could just get Henry, or an aftermarket to sell barrels for these, I'd buy 10 barrels right away for sure. Mine is a 308, and it shoots every bit as good as any TC Encore I ever shot.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    If this is your first single shot Henry, you will like it. What is the trigger pull, if you have a gauge? Guess if you don't. The triggers were flat out garbage when they first came out, but the recall really got their game together. I personally think Henry knocked it out of the park with these, but are sitting firm without fully taking advantage with what they have. The hinge pin alone is worth the money for these, it's the best designed break action hinge I've ever seen. If we could just get Henry, or an aftermarket to sell barrels for these, I'd buy 10 barrels right away for sure. Mine is a 308, and it shoots every bit as good as any TC Encore I ever shot.
    Probably about 3-4lbs, no takeup at all with a clean break and just a little overtravel, very clean and good trigger overall.

    It is my first, and honestly I'm surprised at the amount of gun you get for the money, the gun is very nicely made and has beautiful furniture, I can see more of them in my future for sure.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.
    My hunting buddy had a H&R single shot he used as a punt gun on his sneak boat.
    We chisled out parts of the forend and filled it with molten lead. It solidified quickly and worked great.
    I used a Winchester mod 37 industrial gun with a heavy barrel in a swivel mount on the foredeck.

    Over here, shotguns (and semiauto rifles) are two shot only, but the law says nothing about the number of guns you can have in a boat.
    Cap'n Morgan

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    It won't break his shoulder, it just won't be pleasant. I've never been able to get my hands on those Breneke gold crush's. Those are by far the most powerful factory slug you can buy for a 12 gauge. If you just want to get a taste of recoil, one slug you can find in a lot of stores is the Federal 3" 1 1/4oz powershok slug at 1600 fps. Fire one of those in a 5 1/4 pound H&R single shot, and you see a flash before your eyes... and it isn't muzzle flash.

    By my calculations, that Federal 1 1/4 oz slug in this Henry should be just over 52 ft/lb recoil. By comparison, a 1000 grain slug at 900 fps would be 55 ft/lb, pretty close. I'm sure you can get to 1000 fps safely with that slug, which would put you up to just over 65 ft/lb. That should be squarely in the 458 caliber elephant rifle territory.
    And buy comparison a .30-06 with 150 gr bullets has about 15 ftlbs of recoil energy!

    Mega: A .458 WM is 500 gr at 2150 fps. TKO is 70.

    A 1 oz Slug at 1200 fps has a TKO of 54

    A 1 oz Slug at 1600 fps is 72 or close to .458 WM. I have 2 15 round boxes of those missing only 2 rounds! (= Chiropractor)

    A 1 1/4 Slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 91!

    A Brenneke Magnum Crush 1 1/2 oz slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 109!

    TKO refers to a projectiles ability to transfer its energy at Impact. Whereas a .458WM has more energy(Ft Lb) it is only being transferred over the frontal area of the slug which is .658 sq in. Whereas the .73 cal. slug is transferring thru a surface area of,,, 1.675 sq in or 2.54 times the area of the .458WM. Hence the Big Slug transfers its energy 2.5 times more efficiently to the target and the target has to soak up that energy all at once instead of having a 1/2" hole poked thru it with much of the residual energy left after pass thru being transferred to the dirt behind the target. This is why TKO is more of an accurate representation of Knockdown Power than shear Ft Lbs.

    The 1000 gr slug traveling at 1000 fps would have a TKO of 104 which is slightly less than the Magnum Crush. In a 5.5 lb gun that would surely hurt alot.

    I have some Brenneke Low Recoil Tactical Home Defense Slugs 1 oz at 1378 fps and they are way more than I care to shoot from my M500 house gun that weighs 8 lbs on the nose loaded. I could tolerate a few in a pumped up scenario, but wouldn't do it often. I have 5 boxes of them just in case.

    It is important that our people here understand exactly what they are wielding as far as power. A 12 Ga. Shotgun Slug is no joke! And even the Lee Slugs in my Trap Loads are more powerful than many Magnum Rifles.

    I often say,,, "Nothing Lives thru a Slug!"

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 07-24-2021 at 05:09 PM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    And buy comparison a .30-06 with 150 gr bullets has about 15 ftlbs of recoil energy!

    Mega: A .458 WM is 500 gr at 2150 fps. TKO is 70.

    A 1 oz Slug at 1200 fps has a TKO of 54

    A 1 oz Slug at 1600 fps is 72 or close to .458 WM. I have 2 15 round boxes of those missing only 2 rounds! (= Chiropractor)

    A 1 1/4 Slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 91!

    A Brenneke Magnum Crush 1 1/2 oz slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 109!

    TKO refers to a projectiles ability to transfer its energy at Impact. Whereas a .458WM has more energy(Ft Lb) it is only being transferred over the frontal area of the slug which is .658 sq in. Whereas the .73 cal. slug is transferring thru a surface area of,,, 1.675 sq in or 2.54 times the area of the .458WM. Hence the Big Slug transfers its energy 2.5 times more efficiently to the target and the target has to soak up that energy all at once instead of having a 1/2" hole poked thru it with much of the residual energy left after pass thru being transferred to the dirt behind the target. This is why TKO is more of an accurate representation of Knockdown Power than shear Ft Lbs.

    The 1000 gr slug traveling at 1000 fps would have a TKO of 104 which is slightly less than the Magnum Crush. In a 5.5 lb gun that would surely hurt alot.

    I have some Brenneke Low Recoil Tactical Home Defense Slugs 1 oz at 1378 fps and they are way more than I care to shoot from my M500 house gun that weighs 8 lbs on the nose loaded. I could tolerate a few in a pumped up scenario, but wouldn't do it often. I have 5 boxes of them just in case.

    It is important that our people here understand exactly what they are wielding as far as power. A 12 Ga. Shotgun Slug is no joke! And even the Lee Slugs in my Trap Loads are more powerful than many Magnum Rifles.

    I often say,,, "Nothing Lives thru a Slug!"

    Randy
    That's a really good example, just puts into perspective the kind of power a simple shotgun can provide, and just how versatile they can be. I know I have been guilty of not giving shotguns the attention they deserve.

    Anyway, a friend found a 5lb jug of Blue Dot for me, so as soon as my BPI order and my roundball mold arrive I can begin the testing!

  12. #52
    Boolit Master


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    I'll be straight up. I think TKO is a bunch of bologna. It makes about as much sense as using a bullets energy (usually ft lb's), which I don't like either. Don't get me wrong, these 12 gauge slugs we are talking about are right up there with most big game rifles, but I would never say they are MORE effective than a 458 win mag or similar. I think the beauty of it is you can buy a 12 gauge anywhere on the planet, they don't cost that much money, and yet you can make ammo for them that is more powerful than any rifle you can just go and buy in a store (unless you have a great gun store).

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    Shotgun slugs are awesome within 100 yds (excluding store bought sabots) but run out of gas quickly. I have killed lots of hogs with the Lyman 525 loaded to about 1500fps muzzle velocity. It is all the recoil I can reasonably stand too. Sighted at 100 yds they are about 4” high at 50, but they start dropping off the table after that. Not to say I could not kill at 125 but elevation gets tricky. Too launch a 900 gr or greater slug to maintain any trajectory that is manageable past 50 yds would take a charge so great as to be practically unshootable IMO. No doubt a bear load at 25 yds is workable but I bet you won’t shoot it twice. Now I’m all for people loading and shooting anything they want, he just needs to know a little something about what he’s about to do. Watch that scope! I think Randy’s chart for comparative purposes is spot on and I’m looking forward to following this.
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  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master

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    jordanka16:

    When I get home in a day or so I will post the Precision Rifle pressure tested load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug.

    They used Blue Dot for that load.

    I used it as the data for 0.735" ACWW RB's... except I wimped out at 40 grs. due to rather stout recoil in a light gun, the data goes to 44 grs.

    Longbow

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    jordanka16:

    When I get home in a day or so I will post the Precision Rifle pressure tested load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug.

    They used Blue Dot for that load.

    I used it as the data for 0.735" ACWW RB's... except I wimped out at 40 grs. due to rather stout recoil in a light gun, the data goes to 44 grs.

    Longbow
    That would be great, I plan to play with the round ball loads before I tackle the super heavy stuff, and with 5lbs of powder I'll be able to do plenty of testing.

    As an aside, about how many loads can I expect to get out of shells? I ordered some Fiocchi 2 3/4 and 3" primed hulls and a roll crimper tool for my drill press.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I am home and found some time so here you go ~ the Precision Rifle load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug:

    Piledriver_1.pdfPileDriver_2.pdfPileDriver_3.pdf

    I used this data in Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls for my 0.735" RB loads. I reached a max of 40 grs. of BD before recoil took its toll then settled on 38 grs. as being a suitable load. In a heavier gun I likely would have ventured over 40 grs. but I doubt I would be putting 44 grs. in a hull and pulling the trigger! 12,000+ PSI seems a wee bit much to me.

    The ACWW RB's I was shooting would have run about 575 gr. or a little less so close to 10% less payload and less bore friction due to much smaller contact area. 38 grs. of BD under the 0.735" RB's was good enough for me.

    I did load some 880 gr. slugs Greg sent me too. Can't recall the powder charge but BD. I used an equivalent weight birdshot load for those. I don't recall recoil being particularly bad... more of a big push than a sharp jab. A lot less weight than you are planning on launching but plenty for me.

    Enjoy!

    Longbow
    Last edited by longbow; Today at 04:25 PM. Reason: spelling!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I am home and found some time so here you go ~ the Precision Rifle load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug:

    Piledriver_1.pdfPileDriver_2.pdfPileDriver_3.pdf

    I used this data in Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls for my 0.735" RB loads. I reached a max of 40 grs. of BD before recoil took its toll then settled on 38 grs. as being a suitable load. In a heavier gun I likely would have ventured over 40 grs. but I doubt I would be putting 44 grs. in a hull and pulling the trigger! 12,000+ PSI seems a wee bit much to me.

    The ACWW RB's I was shooting would have run about 575 gr. or a little less so close to 10% less payload and less bore friction due to much smaller contact area. 38 grs. of BD under the 0.735" RB's was good enough for me.

    I did load some 880 gr. slugs Greg sent me too. Can't recall the powder charge but BD. I used an equivalent weight birdshot load for those. I don't recall recoil being particularly bad... more of a big push than a sharp jab. A lot less weight than you are planning on launching but plenty for me.

    Enjoy!

    Longbow
    That is excellent! I can't wait for my round ball mold to arrive so I can start trying this out. I also found someone to make me a sizer die so that should help with accuracy for the grease groove bullets. Thanks!

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I got best results with the RB's using a plastic gas seal over the powder then hard card wads to bring the ball close to crimp height and a 1/8 nitro card wad under the ball... roll crimped.

    I tried cushion leg wads with petals cut off and other stacked wad combinations using fiber wads. The hard card wad column gave me the best accuracy.

    From smoothbore groups ran about 3" to 4" consistently at 50 yards. From rifled gun (borrowed) groups ran about 2".

    From smoothbore groups stay fairly tight to about 70 yards but then start to open up pretty quickly. By 100 yards I get frequent fliers making groups about 12".

    Blood Trail recently tested some 0.735" RB's I sent him in rifled gun. If you're interest do a search. His load data should be good for smoothbore too so that gives you some other powder options.

    Longbow

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I got best results with the RB's using a plastic gas seal over the powder then hard card wads to bring the ball close to crimp height and a 1/8 nitro card wad under the ball... roll crimped.

    I tried cushion leg wads with petals cut off and other stacked wad combinations using fiber wads. The hard card wad column gave me the best accuracy.

    From smoothbore groups ran about 3" to 4" consistently at 50 yards. From rifled gun (borrowed) groups ran about 2".

    From smoothbore groups stay fairly tight to about 70 yards but then start to open up pretty quickly. By 100 yards I get frequent fliers making groups about 12".

    Blood Trail recently tested some 0.735" RB's I sent him in rifled gun. If you're interest do a search. His load data should be good for smoothbore too so that gives you some other powder options.

    Longbow
    I've got some 2 3/4 and 3" fiocchi hulls coming, along with some bpgs gas seals, some cork wads and nitro cards. I also have a roll crimper coming.

    I have bags and bags of wads, but they're just for target loads, so I went ahead and just ordered everything I thought I might need.

    As an aside, about how many firings do you get from these hulls?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check