what hardness?

[Shadow9mm]

So I am going some reading and some learning as I am preparing to get into bullet casting. One thing that has me stumped is BHN. I am hoping to be casting for 9mm, 38spl, 357 mag, 44spl, and 44 mag

Missouri bullet has a formula Optimum BHN = PSI / (1422 x .90)

In another forum they said 1280 was a better judge

from what I have read for 38s a bhn of 8 will be about right

and for 38/357/44 12 is what it was designed around

but based on the math 38spl should be at 15, and 9mm, 357, and 44 would need to be around 30!

I'm also unclear if i need gas checks for 357 and 44 mag max loads...

Anyway, I have a lot of learning to do, and my reading so far has been all over the place on this topic, no straight answer.

[Rcmaveric]

Pop a squat and let me get the crayons. Class is in session. (I jest sorry, its in my nature to make rude jokes).

Those BHN and pressure numbers are a good starting point for beginners. I started by using the BHN to pressure numbers from Richard Lee in his Modern Reloader manual. In honesty, i think they might hurt in the long run. It was fun to crunch numbers and got me to some starting points. Found some good loads but often I found i had way higher pressures and accurate beyond what the numbers predicted before i had accuracy problems (funny i never leaded a riffle barrel, only pistol). Those BHN and pressure numbers will make most the older guys grown and eye roll because we all know they BS. While scientifically yes, that is the shear point of the lead. That doesnt mean the bullet follows the same characteristics while confined inside a barrel and prressure on both ends and G forces.

Now, lets learn about obturation. Thats when a bullet expands when pressure acts upon the base. We want that. That's what causes the lead to flow and seal the barrel. Make your BHN to high and you cause leading because the bullet cant obturate.

(This is important and might seam off topic but read through and you will see how it ties in).

Now leads us into the cast bullet number one rule: fit is king!! If I didn't say someone will. What is fit? Different schools of thought on this one but first we need numbers. Slug your barrrel and slug your throat. Use a soft lead bullet or sinker. There are articles on here and stickies and YouTube videos. From that measure your bore, groove and throat and check your leade angle (leade is where chamber transitions to your barrel). Now that great fit debate. Some size to bore but i really have only sean a couple people say this but they had targets and groups to back it up. Majority and what we preach to newbies is .002 inches over groove diameter. Me I like to size bullets to throat diameter. Why i mentioned the leade is to check for a chamfer type transition. If the leade looks like 90 degree angle your gonna have issue shaving bullets and throat leading.
(common in cheap mass produce 9mm lugers).

Why I mention fit is because thats what will properly support the bullet and align it it in the barrel before it gets kick where the sun doesnt shine. If its not supported or centered then we cause slump and deformation. They better the bullet fit then less important BHN is. The softer you can go and still maintain accuracy without leading because the bullet is supported.

I use 8 bhn for about everything and go 10 to 12 BHN for almost full pressure rifle loads. Others will report similar.

You also dont need a hard lube, that to is detrimental.

But why do commercial cast bullets use hard bullets and hard lube? It comes down two things. One is shipping. Soft bullets that are lubed with soft lubes wont survive the shipping. Second is they need general broad spectrum product. Hard bullets and lubes are more likely to work. Because hard bullets and hard lubes act as a band aid to get improperly sizes bullets to work. Besides if i neeed to sell you some 22BHN 357 Mag bullets. If I tossed in some obscure math you barely understand but makes since to sell my point and look like a genius, i am more likely to set my hook in you.

Another conundrum is guns have a mind of their own when it comes to ammo. What work for one might not work for another (fine example is i cant get PCed 9mm luger bullets to work for me). A good starting point is a bullet. 002 over groove. Next measure seating depth. Start .004 off the lands and check feeding and slowly move it deeper at. 002 increments until you get reliable feeding (import for semi auto). Use a bullet of about 12BHN (good starter). Now go tune a load and find you a good one. From that you can play with different bullet sizes and BHNs. You will be surprised what you can do when the bullet fits.

On to more BHN topics. I use the following rules of thumb:

8 BHN for low velocity pistol and plinking
10 BHN for general hand gun and light rifle loads
12 BHN for high velocity pistol and general rifle

As a side note after experiments I find that I can go softer.

For gass checks. Anything over 1200fps, put a gas check on it.

[243winxb]

This is the standard for most cast bullets. Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy ingot- 5 pounds (2%-Tin,6%-Antimony,and 92%-Lead)

Target 38, 45 acp a little softer is ok.



No gas checks needed on my 357, 44 mag fired from a hand gun. From a rifle, maybe. Longer barrel time builds more friction/heat. Micro groove rifling may benefit from a gas check.

[Conditor22]

Many people use a lot harder BHN/boolit than is required

The old addage was apr 1 BHN per 100 fps

with powdercoating, I think it's closer to .6-.7 BHN per 100 fps for a correctly sized boolit


an old chart from LASC

[ABJ]

"Rcmaveric" pretty much said it all for a short answer. I will add my opinion, BHN is good for a cheap way of comparing one batch of boolits to another. BHN should not be the goal. The goal should be an accurate alloy for your purpose. Some folks say there is no one "go-to" alloy, but for most handguns and gas checked rifle bullets I believe COWW plus 2% tin is pretty close. The BHN will be (depending on the COWW) around 14/15 BHN.
My alloy of 2 to 2.25 % tin and 4% antimony will yield target grade accuracy in any gun capable of that accuracy. I load 32, 38, 357, 9mm, both 44's, both 45's. 30, 35 and 45-70 in rifle as well as 44 mag and 45 colt.
The tin numbers are a range, hunting boolits get the 2.2% or maybe a little more. Cowboy and plinking boolits can go down to 1.6/1.8 %.
Will a softer alloy work? in some yes, will a harder alloy work? in some yes, it just depends on how many alloys you want to maintain.
I chose to maintain one and tweak my alloy/casting session up or down on the tin to suit the application.
Concerning the use of gas checks, I can only speak to my alloy, assuming the guns are set up correctly, smooth bores etc.... 30 cal rifle plain base up to 1100 ish. 357 mag-1200 ish. 44's and 45's I have never needed a gas check nor in a 38 special. Now for the exceptions,
Ruger sp and gp series stainless steel, I have to use gas checks in all cast boolit loads because of rough forcing cones. I have worn out two reamers on my GP-100/357 and its better but still not right.
I have shot a good many late 90's laser cast at 21 bhn with light target loads in 45 colt and they yield target grade accuracy as well, Why? because they fit the gun. So don't get over invested in a bhn number, instead study the proper loading and fitment of your ammo.
Truth be told I have seen some pretty bad alloys work good in some loads.
Tony

[Shadow9mm]

So I am learning the hard way but fast. I have been coming at this from the wrong end and wrong perspective. I have bought cast bullets to load and I have tried to understand the bullets from a BHN perspective. While looking into casting my focus has been more on BHN then the alloy itself. And in looking for moulds I was looking at specific sizes not realizing that the alloy itself effects shrinkage and how you need to buy your moulds.

So at this point I need to do some research to try to understand the alloys better and figure out what one I want to use.

Thank you for all the help, I have learned a lot, and still have a ways to go it seems.

[Froogal]

I cast bullets for cowboy action shooting. .38 special and .45 Colt. I buy 1-16 lead from Roto-Metals. It yields a BHN of around 10 and is plenty good enough. NO leading in the bores and when that bullet hits the steel target it just kind of flattens out into a disc and drops straight to the ground.

[Shadow9mm]

Pop a squat and let me get the crayons. Class is in session. (I jest sorry, its in my nature to make rude jokes).

Those BHN and pressure numbers are a good starting point for beginners. I started by using the BHN to pressure numbers from Richard Lee in his Modern Reloader manual. In honesty, i think they might hurt in the long run. It was fun to crunch numbers and got me to some starting points. Found some good loads but often I found i had way higher pressures and accurate beyond what the numbers predicted before i had accuracy problems (funny i never leaded a riffle barrel, only pistol). Those BHN and pressure numbers will make most the older guys grown and eye roll because we all know they BS. While scientifically yes, that is the shear point of the lead. That doesnt mean the bullet follows the same characteristics while confined inside a barrel and prressure on both ends and G forces.

So BHN is more of a rough estimate of your needs to get you in the ballpark of where you need to be.

Now, lets learn about obturation. Thats when a bullet expands when pressure acts upon the base. We want that. That's what causes the lead to flow and seal the barrel. Make your BHN to high and you cause leading because the bullet cant obturate.

So going too hard can cause problems as well. It can make it too stiff to seal the throat or barrel properly.

(This is important and might seam off topic but read through and you will see how it ties in).

Now leads us into the cast bullet number one rule: fit is king!! If I didn't say someone will. What is fit? Different schools of thought on this one but first we need numbers. Slug your barrrel and slug your throat. Use a soft lead bullet or sinker. There are articles on here and stickies and YouTube videos. From that measure your bore, groove and throat and check your leade angle (leade is where chamber transitions to your barrel). Now that great fit debate. Some size to bore but i really have only sean a couple people say this but they had targets and groups to back it up. Majority and what we preach to newbies is .002 inches over groove diameter. Me I like to size bullets to throat diameter. Why i mentioned the leade is to check for a chamfer type transition. If the leade looks like 90 degree angle your gonna have issue shaving bullets and throat leading.
(common in cheap mass produce 9mm lugers).

I have 2, 9mm pistols. a sig and a Glock (the glock is a gen 5 with the marksman barrel). Both slugged out at .356. the leads are somewhat abrupt on both, but not 90 degrees. With that said, with .357 sized bullets, I have had significant problems with the leading/the hi-tek coating fouling both barrels badly after bout 50rnds. I believe they run a BHN of 13. My loads are in the 1150-1200fps range. for my 38/357, .358 bulelts will pass through with light finger pressure, but .359 will no.

Why I mention fit is because thats what will properly support the bullet and align it it in the barrel before it gets kick where the sun doesnt shine. If its not supported or centered then we cause slump and deformation. They better the bullet fit then less important BHN is. The softer you can go and still maintain accuracy without leading because the bullet is supported.

So in short, you want a good seal. Go too soft and the gas can get around. go too hard and it wont seal properly and the gas can get around. Its Goldilocks.

I use 8 bhn for about everything and go 10 to 12 BHN for almost full pressure rifle loads. Others will report similar.

From what I have been reading for handguns 357 and 44 mag were designed around 12bhn bullets.

You also dont need a hard lube, that to is detrimental.

But why do commercial cast bullets use hard bullets and hard lube? It comes down two things. One is shipping. Soft bullets that are lubed with soft lubes wont survive the shipping. Second is they need general broad spectrum product. Hard bullets and lubes are more likely to work. Because hard bullets and hard lubes act as a band aid to get improperly sizes bullets to work. Besides if i neeed to sell you some 22BHN 357 Mag bullets. If I tossed in some obscure math you barely understand but makes since to sell my point and look like a genius, i am more likely to set my hook in you.

What are you meaning by hard lubes? I am assuming the waxes in the lube grooves. I have seen the Aloxto tumble lubing but though that only worked for the bullets with the micro lube grooves. Yes they make is seem like you need gas checked 22bhn for heavy 357 loads when fit is more important.

Another conundrum is guns have a mind of their own when it comes to ammo. What work for one might not work for another (fine example is i cant get PCed 9mm luger bullets to work for me). A good starting point is a bullet. 002 over groove. Next measure seating depth. Start .004 off the lands and check feeding and slowly move it deeper at. 002 increments until you get reliable feeding (import for semi auto). Use a bullet of about 12BHN (good starter). Now go tune a load and find you a good one. From that you can play with different bullet sizes and BHNs. You will be surprised what you can do when the bullet fits.

with 9mm I am constrained by OAL to fit in the magazine. for 38/357, I am constrained by the crimp groove locations. Nothing for rifles at this point.

On to more BHN topics. I use the following rules of thumb:

8 BHN for low velocity pistol and plinking
10 BHN for general hand gun and light rifle loads
12 BHN for high velocity pistol and general rifle

As a side note after experiments I find that I can go softer.

For gass checks. Anything over 800fps, put a gas check on it.

So will I need gas checks for all my bullets? because all my loads, 9mm, 38/357, and 44mag/44spl all run well above 800fps.

And lastly, I know I may not be understanding this correctly. But, am I able to get round the alloy content to some degree by tempering. say for example if I take pure lead at 5bhn and put it in a toaster over then water drop it can I get it harder to make it useable. I have a very basic understanding of the process, but am unsure of its limitations. I am also unsure of what alloy I will be using, I am still learning a lot, and want to have as much flexibility as possible so I can work with what I end up being able to get.

Thank you again, It was a very informative lesson. Trying to be a good student and not learn everything the hard way.

[downzero]

With powdercoating I don't even pay attention to hardness. Straight wheel weights in everything.

[shooter bob]

I would disregard the 800 FPS that was stated I shoot plain base 44 cal 250gr keith bullets with near max load of 2400 and H110 at full max loads powdercoated with no problems. I believe he missed a numeral there. I believe he means 1800 FPS?

[Shadow9mm]

With powdercoating I don't even pay attention to hardness. Straight wheel weights in everything.

I am looking into it powder coating, but wanted to get the fundamentals down first.

[Dieselhorses]

I would disregard the 800 FPS that was stated I shoot plain base 44 cal 250gr keith bullets with near max load of 2400 and H110 at full max loads powdercoated with no problems. I believe he missed a numeral there. I believe he means 1800 FPS?

It's actually 1200 fps. At least what many on here say. With PC I don't even pay attention to that as my 2300+ fps .224 boolits fly great and leave no leading.

[bangerjim]

9-12 hardness + PC here on the estate for anything up to 1,900FPS (and higher!)............in all cal's!

No grease / no leading / no muss / no fuss / no "stewing" about hardness.

Don't overthink this harness thing! Too many new casters get hung up in the weeds on that one. PC is your savior on hardness.

Don't read too much! Doing is far more educational than just reading about it. When I started out, it was BI (Before Internet) and I just learned from doing and only one old book. Now PC on everything is GREAT! (I use ESPC, but you can start out with the simple shake-n-bake method most on here use.) Just make sure your boolit-to-barrel FIT is correct as referenced above.

Spend more time casting, loading, and shooting..........and less time reading.

banger

[hc18flyer]

I cast bullets for cowboy action shooting. .38 special and .45 Colt. I buy 1-16 lead from Roto-Metals. It yields a BHN of around 10 and is plenty good enough. NO leading in the bores and when that bullet hits the steel target it just kind of flattens out into a disc and drops straight to the ground.

Froogal- I am sure it casts awesome. I am casting for the same calibers and velocities, and using 1.75-2 % Tin. They cast and shoot fine in my revolvers. I am fortunate to have a variety of components and utilize the Alloy Calculators to get to what I want. hc18flyer

[dale2242]

I disagree with bangerjim.
I think reading is very important.
Before internet, read the 60s here, I learned a lot from reading reloading manuals and books.
Things that are not pertinent to to what you are trying to do will probably be obvious and ignore them.
I am 80 years old and I am still learning from reading on the internet.
This site and it`s members have a lot to offer.

[Shadow9mm]

I disagree with bangerjim.
I think reading is very important.
Before internet, read the 60s here, I learned a lot from reading reloading manuals and books.
Things that are not pertinent to to what you are trying to do will probably be obvious and ignore them.
I am 80 years old and I am still learning from reading on the internet.
This site and it`s members have a lot to offer.

While learning hands on can be great and is an important part of any learning process you need a reasonable understanding of what you are doing before you start. With no one to teach me, I have, and will continue to do a lot of reading. It will most likely be a few weeks before I can buy my melting pot and some basic moulds to start out with. Until then I want to learn and understand as much as I can. That mean lots of reading and youtube. After that I plan to buy a couple custom moulds, however that wont be until I have basic casting down and I know exactly what I need.

[John Boy]

Facts for proper Bhn don’t get any better than those posted in the LASC chart and the correct type of powder per the vendors reload tested data bases. Here’s a loading table for many calibers by bullet weight with the best powder highlighted … http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm.

[Rcmaveric]

I dont know where I pulled that 800Fps out of. It belongs to something and a rule of thumb but isnt gas checks. I am edditing my first post to correct that. 1200 is the right number for when to use gas checks. Chock that one off to showing off and early onset senility.

Yes, your catching on quickly.

BHN is much more meaningful measurement than anything thing else. I dont use tin. Call me cheap.

Yes reliable feeding and magazine dimensions will constrain your seating depth as well as mulitple fire arms. But you got start some where. Find the longest seating depth. It will be more accurate. Or just use published standards. I always find my guns max. Then slowly seat deeper until i get reliable feeding and chambering.

As long as your leade isnt a 90 degree or sharp your fine. I just mentioned it incase.

You can crimp where ever you want on a bullet. You dont need to crimp in the crimp groove if you done want to. My 9mm bullets dont have crimp grooves.

Get an FCD. It will help if you have multiple guns in 1 caliber.



Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[downzero]

I am looking into it powder coating, but wanted to get the fundamentals down first.

If you can make bullets, you can powdercoat.

[gwpercle]

I use a 50 - 50 mix of COWW - Soft Lead ( stick on WW , range scrap and/or building materials like lead flashing ) for everything . I might sweeten the pot with a little printers type for extra 0.05% tin .
In theory this is supposed to be bhn 8 but I don't have a tester .
Lubricant is Lithium - Beeswax ( 1 part lithum - 3 parts beeswax) I air cool them all then size / lubricate . Loads below 1,000 fps are plain base . Loads over 1,000 fps get a copper gas check .

This must work well because I load for 8 different handguns and 4 different rifles ... have had NO leading problems in handgun or rifle .
Fit (size) of the boolit to bore/throat is way more important than boolit hardness .
A good lubricant is vital to success and Lithium-Beeswax is one of the best.
Don't fear the gascheck ...bhn 8 and a gas check = magnum handgun velocities and good hunting boolits in rifles . I had an NOE 9mm mould cut for gas check #358-124-TC- GC ... size to .357" and use in 9mm Luger and 38 Super ... size to .358" and use in 38 Special , 38 Spcl.+P , and 357 Magnum loads - handgun and rifle . All with bhn 8 alloy & a gas check , very versatile boolit.
Gary