What constatutes an accuracy group ?

[Dom]

Was recently commenting in a discussion about whether to de-burr then inner flash hole in a brass case. It was my opinion that a three shot group was very sufficient. Another though that a minimum of 5 shots was required. It made me think of when I was growing up ( 77 now ) . Just me & my mother & money was tight. Hunting was about putting meat on the table , not trophy horns. I started hunting as soon as I was able to & have been doing so ever since. I'm sure others grew up the same way. My mother would give me five 22 shorts ( she keep the box hidden ) , send me out rabbit hunting. If I fired a shot I better bring a rabbit back & the other 4 rounds. 3 rounds if I got two rabbits. we did not buy 22 LR because they cost something like 15 cents more per box. .
Then at some point I finally was big game hunting. A Win lever action 30-30 turned up from some where. Of course open sights. A neighbor came over & fired it at a can some 50 or so yards away to check it's zero. . He hit the can turned toward me & said , yup it's on. I never fired that rifle at any thing but game from then on. I generally only had 2 or 3 rounds with me. Deer at first , then elk. A 200yd shot was unthinkable. You crawled & snuck up as close as possible, & only took for sure shots. One shot was the rule. So to this day that type of thinking has stayed with me. We have been taking big game for as long as I remember . Still mainly for the meat. Horns are secondary. I have for sure taken trophy elk & deer but that was because I had a tag for a buck or bull only. We take deer & elk each season. Extremely rare to take more than one shot. Not trying to do a sob story , but how your childhood influences your adult behavior.

[dverna]

I grew up poor as well....but decided I wanted a different path.

Taking game at short range is a way to deal with poor guns, poor sights, poor loads, and poor marksmanship.

For how I hunt, I need 1.5 MOA or better as I want to be able to shoot deer at 400 yards if need be. I am not a hunter...I am a shooter.

Do what works for you, your equipment, and your skill set.

To answer your question, that 1.5 MOA or less is for multiple 5 shot groups. Three shot groups are useless and that is why so many people use them....it hides the truth.

[Dom]

We all have our beliefs, for what ever reason. You can see that by the various opinions. I have taken my elk & deer every season for I don't know how long based on the three shot group. It has never failed me. If it works it works.

[Win94ae]

...whether to de-burr then inner flash hole in a brass case....50 or so yards away to check it's zero. . He hit the can turned toward me & said , yup it's on....

If that is your "accuracy" expectations, why de-burr at all? You probably can get away with no load development whatsoever.

"A 200yd shot was unthinkable."
Yes! Obviously!

[dverna]

We all have our beliefs, for what ever reason. You can see that by the various opinions. I have taken my elk & deer every season for I don't know how long based on the three shot group. It has never failed me. If it works it works.

Then why ask the question? At short range, a one shot group might be good enough. Why waste two more rounds? Plenty of folks do not check their zero before going on a hunt...it works for them.

[Dom]

Since I live on large acreage I shoot regularly. I can step outside & shoot across one small gully out to 424yds. I may only shoot one shot, but I may do this 2 or3 times a week. I have a 10" target that I shoot at. This confirms on a regular basis that my rifles are on. If the rifle I'm shooting wanders I would see it immediately. For the most part I shoot year round, except for the sever cold times. Keeps me sharp. Never said I was a once a year shooter.

[hoodat]

My criteria for "hunting accuracy" is pretty simple. If me and my rifle can keep all shots on a paper plate, at whatever distance I'm shooting, and whatever method I'm using, I'm good to go.

I've got a couple rifles that will consistently put five shots in a group that a dime will cover. (100 yds) If I had to stand and shoot off-hand at a paper plate with them at a hundred yards, it would be tough to pass my criteria. But I've got other rifles that group around two inches at 100 (from the bags), that I could easily keep on the plate off-hand at 100. jd

[dtknowles]

Horses for courses. Depends on what you are shooting and what you are shooting at. If you are shooting groundhogs it is different than if you are shooting a moose. Big game might want to shoot groups to check your ammo but accuracy should be checked with single shots from a cold barrel.

Tim

[JSnover]

Horses for courses. Depends on what you are shooting and what you are shooting at. If you are shooting groundhogs it is different than if you are shooting a moose. Big game might want to shoot groups to check your ammo but accuracy should be checked with single shots from a cold barrel.

Tim

That!
If it really is all about one shot-one kill, then it isn't about groups. Groups only matter on paper targets.

[dverna]

Horses for courses. Depends on what you are shooting and what you are shooting at. If you are shooting groundhogs it is different than if you are shooting a moose. Big game might want to shoot groups to check your ammo but accuracy should be checked with single shots from a cold barrel.

Tim

A good point. Seems cast bullets are worse for first shot out of group. But I hunt with jacketed and they seem less affected at the ranges I shoot deer at.

I shoot groups for load testing and I see no other way to determine the accuracy of a load. If I get a poor group after 3 shots, I stop and pull down the other two rounds. I use 5 shot groups. Pick the best one and load more, and shoot more groups...all 5 shot and look at the average group size. I have got less anal as I "matured". Really no good reason to waste money chasing sub MOA groups at 200 yards for a deer rifle in MI.

I have never needed to use more than 100 bullets to find a good load. Well...good enough for me.

BTW, I think even more important than cold barrel first shot performance is temperature sensitivity. I do all my testing in nice weather. I have hunted in 0* to 75* temperatures in MI. I use powders like Varget that are less temperature sensitive. BL-C2 is a poor choice for my circumstances even though it is a good powder in terms of accuracy potential.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I first determine if a rifle is suitable for my hunting by firing at 200 yards. 2 targets are used. I shoot 1 shot at Target A and 2 shots at Target B. I do this at least 5 times. If target A with its five shots and target B with its 15 shots give me a group smaller than 4" at 200 yards, the rifle is good for hunting. The repeatability on multiple days is far more reliable than a single 5 or 10 shot group on a single day. I have a Savage 99 308 Featherweight and a Savage 99 243 Featherweight that stay under 2.5 inches for this severe test. My Marlin 444 and my early Marlin 1895 45-70 easily make the 4" requirement, there are many 3 shot groups under 2" at 200 yards, but day after day, the true accuracy, including the critical cold barrel first shot is revealed. This test also reveals certain powders that are more consistent based on barrel conditions from previous rounds fired. Testing is done with a heavy higher power scope, the a light 'hunting' scope is installed for serious work. Serious work to find the RIGHT powder bullet and maybe primer combination after carefully prepping cases.

[Riverside]

Your firearm and load must perform the task they are intended to do.