So can someone answer me a few basic questions about reloading

[Stopsign32v]

I've been reloading off and on for about 5 years now. Successfully I'd say other than my loads are less than accurate, but I figured one day I will get that sorted out. I was a little constructive criticized on another site, which is perfectly ok as I'm always wanting to learn.

So far I've really only ever been reloading using bought cast boolits. I do want to add that ALL of my loads in lever actions and rolling blocks have been acceptable accurate for what I'm capable of (I don't shoot as much as I'd like). But when it comes to revolvers my rounds are not that accurate (some are). What I don't know is if it me or if it is the rounds. And honestly without putting in the range time I don't know if I ever will be able to tell.

Now comes to the questions I have. So with the limited range time I have, sometimes once a YEAR (I'm working on it) I don't always load up a lot of rounds to see how they perform. Getting to the point, often times I use forums for reloading recipes and look for an overall agreed loading on sites like this and others. For example the common load for 45 Colt is 8gr of Unique and I absolutely LOVE the thump this gives you but not too much. However...Accuracy completely sucks for me. Could be the load or could be me flinching, I don't know. All I do know is I enjoy reloading greatly and I enjoy shooting too.

Lately I got a GP100 in 357 Magnum and wanted to load up some rounds with powder I have since powder now doesn't exist.

Criticism point ahead

I got it wanting a good 357 Magnum thump so I loaded up 15gr of 296 and also 16gr of 296 (criticism part) but I have nothing currently but Xtreme copper coated bullets. I saw where Xtreme said these bullets are safe to send up to 1200fps without leading. These loads out of a 5" barrel gave me no leading but accuracy was rather large and I even think they were key holing if that is even possible. I absolutely love Unique powder so I also loaded up some Unique hot loads with normal primers and 6.3gr and also 8.3gr. This is where I had someone on another site tell me that 8.3gr would be way over the SAAMI 35,000psi limit. Sure enough, when I went a couple days later to look at the spent casings the primers were smooshed flat and had drag marks on the back of the cases. But in my defense I just went by what I read here...





Also I had another member ask me if I "worked my way up". If you are into reloading you have always heard this. So let me defend myself a little here and also ask a question or two for you experienced guys...

If I can't safely open a reloading manual printed in 2016 and run it's max load then why is it listed as the max load? And what do I use and trust?

When you guys say "work your way up" what exactly do you mean? Are we talking example here above...Starting load of Uniqe 6.4, then some in 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3....All the way to 8.3?

When you do "work your way up" what exactly are you doing it for?

What do I need to do to become a successful reloader for revolver rounds and have accurate and safe loads? I feel like yes I am enjoying it but I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface. I want to see the payoff for my reloading (accuracy).


I have thick skin so fire away if you need but I'm pretty bummed about all of this honestly. The rounds didn't feel right to me, maybe it was because I haven't shot a magnum in years or what but I ceased firing and will be taking all the unfired rounds down and start over. Oh and what made me think that my shooting wasn't THAT bad is my 8.3gr Unique load was...wow...stout but they were impressively accurate. All of the 296 powder loads with magnum primers were pretty bad accuracy. Again maybe flinching maybe not, I don't know. Big boom and big fireballs though. But I was smart enough to take 6 rounds of factory Remington UMC magnum rounds to compare and they were very accurate for me. So that leads me to believe my flinching wasn't that big of an issue (I did flinch though, 100%).

Oh and also I have read that copper plated bullets need to be loaded between cast and fmj load data. I chose to not follow this advice because of Xtreme stating their rounds were good to 1200fps and I focused on the manuals that I used fps load data. Was that wrong? BTW, again the copper plated bullets did not leave leading in the barrel. Accuracy definitely did not favor the plated bullets at this speed but 2 things...1 no leading...and 2 using 3 different manuals I loaded ALL 357 Magnum rounds within min and max loading. So where did I go wrong?

[jim147]

On the max load, your problem is you don't have the exact weapon the book used. So yes sneak up on max loads. I haven't even worried about max loads for years.

The biggest problem I think we see with makin a revolver accurate is the bullet fit. Chambers and barrels need to be checked and everything sized properly or it just doesn't work right.

Keep trying but back off the max loads. There is little need for them.

[Dieselhorses]

You might want to sit down before reading this

First of all, please slow down! "Slow is good" sometimes when it comes to reloading especially when your objective is to achieve accuracy and, of course, being safe about everything! Yes, I run 15 gr's H110 in my Smith 686-7 using 158 gr. powder-coated pills. I think (and this only a theory) that your "copper coated bullets" may be too hard. Another theory is that these "store bought bullets" may be too small for your bore. When I first started casting for my .500 magnum, just about every bullet hit the target but "sideways" LOL. This happens when your bullet does not "obturate" (basically "marrying" the grooves in the rifling). Mine keyholed because my lead was way up there on the BHN scale (like 23 BHN). Anyway see if there is a way to test the hardness of bullets.

Sorry I can't elaborate on everything you asked but "working up" or "developing" a load is important simply to see what's gonna be accurate. You can't just pick "max" or somewhere in the middle because what works in one gun may act differently in another.

[Rcmaveric]

The commercial cast bullets could be your problem. You only need a bullet of 8 to 10 BHN for a unique load. I might consider water droping when hitting full throttle .357 Mag velocities, still might not.

For success in revolver. Measure your throat diameter on all cylinders. Easy way to do that is to push a bullet threw each cylinder and mike them out. They should all be within a couple thousand of each other. Size your bullets to the largest thoat or .002 (different schools of thought on this, some even say thumb pressure. Expirement and you decide).

Yes, always work up a load. Most of those books even tell you not to just jump on the max load. If you want a max load start 10% under the max load and work it up in increments. Like a Tight Group max load is 5.5g in 9mm (pulling it from butt so might not be). So load up 5 shots of 5 groups in .1 increments. Just because it says max safe load doesnt mean it is... you bullet brand could be different, your seating depth could be different and your relaoding style snd brass. Worst case scenario you loaded a bit hot, accidentally seated enough to stick a bullet into the lands. Quickloads tells me thats enough to turn a hot load into a dangerous load.

I reload for accuracy. So when i do load development i load up 10 test groups betwen the min and max (us basic math to find the increments) 5 shots each group. More than once i have found a near max load showing high pressure signs. Often i find my best accuracy closer the light or mid side. I do big increments then a fine tune increments. Sand bag the guns so you know the ammo is accurate. That way when you prsctice you know its the jerk behind the trigger and not the bang pills.



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[Rcmaveric]

Owe.... load plated bullets at cast bullet levels or find a manual with plated bullets.

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[44Blam]

You need more range time. Reloading and casting requires a lot of time both casting boolits and loading cartridges.

I actually have a cool little press (the lee one: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1013017131?pid=650614 ) that I take to the range sometimes when I really don't know what is going to work. I will load up what I think will work and bring enough components to make maybe another 15-20 rounds to dial stuff in.

Another super important piece of equipment is a chronograph. So you have a book and it says x.y grains will give you 1200 fps. When you shoot it and your chrono says 1500 fps - you know something is different and it will give you signs of overpressure well before primers and other things. Normally when I go by the book the numbers match up pretty well and you can see a very linear progression in velocity as you increase powder charge. It's when you see an increase that is no longer linear that you need to worry.

Then you'll try different powders - you might see that that one is more accurate, burns cleaner or any other number of attributes.

But when you can put in the time and really tune things your boolits will be more accurate than factory for the firearm you are loading for and it will be very repeatable. Well, and fun!

[bimus]

By working up your load and recording it is where you learn what you can trust in your firearm . The loads listed where fired in a universal receiver that is a caution flag .

[44Blam]

And lordy - 8.3 grain of unique in a 357 mag? I shoot 8 or so grain under a 240 grain boolt in 44 mag at 1100 fps...
W296 - load that one with a pretty much full case under the boolit - it's gonna kick but it'll be fun. With W296/H110/AA11FS DO NOT try to load reduced loads - I found this out the bad way.

[ryanmattes]

Wow. Sorry. It's just that you're pushing a dangerous line. Max loads can hurt you.

I think of loading as finding the right balance, between size, weight, velocity, pressure, and twist. It's a graceful dance, not a mosh pit.

Every barrel is different, and likes a slightly different velocity for a given weight. Most of the time, the most consistent load is somewhere in or near the middle. Past that ideal load, the groups almost always open up noticeably.

And with cast, fit is everything. Too small and you get gas cutting, because the gas gets around the bullet. Too big and you get pressure spikes, because driving the bullet down the rifling is like driving in a screw with a hammer. So always start by slugging your barrel, and get cast that's .001-.002 bigger. And experiment (carefully) with sizing.

I also always start at the min, or very close, and usually go in 4 or 5 steps first, fewer if there's less weight range. So for the Unique data you showed, from 6.4 to 8.3, I'd usually load 6.4, 6.8, 7.2, 7.6, and 8.0 grains. Stay under the max. Shoot those, figure out which has the best groups, then do a second, more granular ladder. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess the 7.2 was the tightest groups. So I'd load 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, and see which groups are the tightest.

There are a lot of variables. In .357, seating depth, roll or taper crimp, how hard to crimp, wax-lubed or coated, etc, in addition to charge weight. I'd also load those same ladders in sizes from .356, .357, and .358 (or .357-.359, depending on how your barrel slugs), to see what your barrel likes.

With a new revolver I may go to the range with 96 test rounds, that's 16 different 6 round groups of different sizes, seating depths, charge weights, and crimp strengths, each shot at a separate bullseye to figure out what gives me the best groupings. Start from the lightest and work your way up to the hottest. Between groups I check the barrel for leading, and the cartridges for pressure signs. Scrub the barrel with a brass brush if there's lead, or stop if you see pressure signs.

I'm not looking for the max load, I'm looking for the best load for this gun. Once I find it, then I can load in bulk.

I bought a new 1911 a few months back. The pic below is the first pass at finding a load with a particular mold. Each 10 round group is marked with a different number of stripes in a couple different colors of nail polish (donated by the SO), so I know which groups I'm loading. I mark my book the same (2nd pic), and tape the target in the book when I get home so I can track the results.

The slow, methodical way is the only way to find the best consistency and precision. That doesn't mean you can't load a bunch and have fun at the range. It just means you have to do the homework and have a purpose when you get to the range, at least until you settle on the right load. Then you can just make a bunch and shoot em.

If it were me, I'd start at the beginning with each kind of bullet you load, and write everything down.



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[dverna]

For maximum loads, I start about 10-12% below maximum, Alliant lists the maximum for Unique at 7.7 gr for jacketed and 7.6 for lead. I would make up 10 rounds at each setting of 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6 and test them.

After each shot, examine the case for signs of pressure. If there are signs of pressure, I stop testing that load.
Shoot groups off a rest. Even Master class shooters test for accuracy using a rest.

Note that seating depth has a significant affect on pressure so insure your overall length meets the specs of the load. This is called COL (Cartridge Overall Length). In the Alliant data COL for the jacketed bullet is listed at 1.575, and 1.580 for the Lead RNFP.

If your crimp groove results in a different COL you need to take that into consideration. A longer COL will result in lower pressures so you will be safe. Shorter COL will increase pressure.

The amount of crimp will also affect pressure.

IMO, if you are shooting a few times a year, and a couple of boxes at a time I would suggest you keep things simple. Casting is not worthwhile unless you are establishing a skill set for SHTF. Do not invest in casting.

For less than 500 rounds a year, I would buy decent jacketed bullets. Commercial cast bullets are less expensive but more problematic if you are pushing maximum loads in something like a .357Mag. If you go with commercial cast bullets see if you can get them sized at .359 or .360. Some suppliers will do that. You need to do more testing with cast to determine if you are getting leading and it sounds like you do not get much range time...thus my suggestion for using jacketed bullets. BTW, bring your velocity down to the 800-900 fps area and cast bullets are much more forgiving, and you will flinch less.

[Forrest r]

Some people view things as criticism, others view things as trying to keep you safe. Several people warned you what would happen and you pretty much blew them off.

At the end of the day you took data from a completely different bullet. And made up some extremely hot loads without working your loads up for the "bullet" you were using.

Extreme does have data for their bullets, they used power pistol for 1 of their powders. They list a max load of 7.5gr of pp for 3 of their 158gr bullets and 6.7gr of pp for 1 of their 158gr bullets. Typically you use the same amount or more pp then unique in 158gr or heavier bullets in the 357mags.

Different bullet ='s made out of different material, different seating depth (amount of case volume under the bullets base), different case neck tension (affects short start pressure & how efficient the powder burns), different bullet hardness affecting how the pressure builds in the leade's of the cylinders.

Don't know about you but thins is always my 1st concern when working up loads with data from a different bullet.
[IMG][/IMG]

I cast a lot of obsolete bullets and swage my own jacketed and lead bullets. I always look at case volume of known bullets 1st and then work loads up from there.

This is what you wrote for a range report:
6.3gr of Unique with normal primers...Decently accurate and a puppy to shoot.
8.3gr of Unique with normal primers...Quite hot, large fireball from sides of cylinder. AMAZINGLY accurate!
15gr of 296 with mag primers...Clearly into magnum territory. Accuracy was falling apart and holes in paper target grew in size.
16gr of 296 with mag primers...Enough to have the only other guy there, 3 bays down to ask me "*** are you shooting? I can feel the concussion down there." Fireball from cylinder gap was legendary and accuracy was a joke.
Factory loaded Remington UMC 357 Magnum fired lastly to compare. Grouping was as good as my 8.3gr Unique load and more importantly the holes were nice and neat compared to the both 296 loads which were almost double the size. Unstable bullets?

Myself I would of:
Shot the factory rounds 1st and used that as a baseline to compare my reloads to paying attention to recoil, what the cases look like & what the bullet holes in the paper look like.
Don't know why you didn't pick up on the 8.3gr/unique loads having flattened primers with drag marks??? Typically when you see over pressure on revolver cases it's already too late.
I would of quit with the 15gr loads of 296 when I saw the holes in the target blowing out.
Have no idea why you shot the 16gr loads of 296 after seeing the 15gr loads blew out???

Anyway I'm glad you bought an extremely strong firearm like the gp100.

[358429]

Try using properly made jacketed or powdercoated bullets in your ammunition experiments. I think the problem is the plated bullets. I used them when I was getting started, the gun would Bang! and the bullets would strike the targets, but not anywhere near as well as remington green and white box.

I was using extreme 125 grain and ww296.

Those were inaccurate to say the least. At least it got me shooting.

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[sharps4590]

Not much to add, you've been given the best. All I will say is that the max loads in all books is the results of that lab, on that day using their equipment. Change one little element and the results change....even if that element is time. You changed how many and question the results?

I chased max velocities for maybe a year....some 40+ years ago in my 60 year reloading career. Learned pretty quick it's nearly always a waste of components and time.

[William Yanda]

Working up, Max load-Starting load divided by 5, work up in steps. Don't thank me, I read it somewhere, I think it was Lee.

[GregLaROCHE]

First, I have not had a lot of experience with handguns, except for 44mag for bear protection. I didn’t hesitate to always load the max! Accuracy wasn’t the name of the game, only max energy. Back then I was only using jacketed bullets.

It may be different with hand guns, but with rifles, working your way up the ladder, so to speak, let’s you find the sweet spot for your barrel, for the best accuracy.

So it all depends what you are looking for. Do you want max energy or max accuracy?

[Sasquatch-1]

Every one has hit on all the aspects of the reloading side of your problem...so here is a little trick to try the next time you go to the range. If someone else is at the range while you are there ask them to load two to four rounds in you revolver for you and close it up before giving it back. Shoot the revolver without looking at the cylinder. When you hit an empty chamber you will know whether or not you are flinching.

I truly believe it is you and not the loads that are the problem. Load down for practice until you get proficient then start the max loads.

[sharps4590]

Every one has hit on all the aspects of the reloading side of your problem...so here is a little trick to try the next time you go to the range. If someone else is at the range while you are there ask them to load two to four rounds in you revolver for you and close it up before giving it back. Shoot the revolver without looking at the cylinder. When you hit an empty chamber you will know whether or not you are flinching.

I truly believe it is you and not the loads that are the problem. Load down for practice until you get proficient then start the max loads.

Yeah, there is always that. Who among us hasn't been surprised at his reaction?

[toallmy]

I found plated bullets to shoot much better at cast boolit velocity , so I decided to start casting . I also discovered I enjoyed shooting my handguns more without feeling like I had a stick of dynamite going off in my hand every time I squeezed the trigger . I still shoot some full power loads with commercial jacketed bullets - key words are ( commercially jacketed bullets ) not plated .
You definitely went the wrong way with your starting load development , going to the upper extreme to start with , but you learned a valuable lesson that you will hopefully remember . I suppose that's why the manuals say to work up to the maximum load not start out there and see what happens .
In all honesty probably a lot of us have jumped in the hot end of the load data loading prematurely .
I have gotten to the point now that when I'm trying out new load development I don't load any test rounds at the top end to carry with me to the range , because I generally end up pulling them apart when I get home anyway .
I'm not very good with a handgun ether it seams the little devil keeps wiggling around while I'm trying to stay on target so load work up is troubling for me . So I need to shoot off a bench with a rest to actually see what is going on .
Don't get out of heart learn from the experience and move on with the knowledge you have gained .

[Thumbcocker]

Not a loading suggestion but if you don't get to the range often invest in some snap caps and dry fire the snot out of your handguns. Be deliberate. Take your time. Build your grip. Get a good sight picture on an aiming point (a small sticker on a wall, design in the wall paper. Refrigerator magnet) focus on sight picture and trigger squeeze. You can get a lot of practice in by dry firing during commercials.

Work up to the penny on the front sight trick. You will notice a difference at your next trip to the range.

[JimB..]

Even when shooting by myself I always load 5 rounds, spin the cylinder and close it without looking. I used to sometimes load 4, but once I hit the first I knew where the second was so it was a waste.

I’ve loaded a lot of plated bullets, and continue to do so for autoloaders, but I find them relatively inaccurate in a revolver.

Slug your throats and barrel, order bullets that are properly sized.

Have you read a reloading manual? There are some free online in pdf.

Or ignore everything else, use whatever bullets you have, and load at mid levels. The bullets will likely be more accurate than you and it’ll be that way until you’re shooting more often.