So can someone answer me a few basic questions about reloading

[jsizemore]

Also how do companies like Buffalo Bore make 357 loads that go 1700fps out of a revolver while keeping it safe? You won't find those load suggestions in any book, so how do they do it safely?

I see you've not met Freedom Arms.

[Forrest r]

Max. loads with Unique in .357 will quickly erode the rear face of the barrel and forcing cone, as well as flame cutting of your top strap and possibly gas cutting the front face of the cylinder. I would not exceed 6.5 grains of Unique with a 158-grain cast bullet for about 1050 fps if you want the gun to last. If you really need higher velocity, then you should select a slower, cooler-burning powder and stick to the powder manufacturer's data.

100,000 rounds down the tube of a s&w 586 and it went back to s&w to have the bbl set back, a new forcing cone cut and new timing parts. The rear of the bbl was eroded like what Outpost75 described along with it was spitting lead everywhere from worn timing parts.

200,000 rounds down the tube that same 586 went back to s&w again for the same work.

75,000 rounds later (275,000 rounds on the cylinder and bbl) the cylinder was eroded from where the end of the case sits clear into the leades of the cylinder holes. The lands on the drive side of them were worn pretty bad. And the end of the bbl had the typical erosion that outpost75 talked about. What that bbl looked like when I took it off. 75,000 rounds on the eroded back of the bbl. 275,000 rounds on the lands.
[IMG][/IMG]

Not the best picture but you can clearly see the "step" that was eroded cylinder holes.
[IMG][/IMG]

Outpost75 has forgotten more than most people know when it comes to revolvers. The pictures of the erosion he is talking about is pictured above on those 586 parts.

[Stopsign32v]

Yea I'm done with really hot loads of Unique or faster burning powder. But how are you suppose to know when you are in the danger zone? 6.5gr of unique is far below what middle and high loads for 158gr are. I'm not doubting the knowledge, just trying to figure out how you would know.

[Walks]

The most accurate load I've found for .357Mag with Unique is 6.0grs under a #358429. Bullet sized .358 and lubed with 50/50.

But that is in MY 1973 NM Blackhawk. Doesn't mean it'll shoot great for you. Each Revolver is a "Law" unto itself.

[Outpost75]

Where can I get the 101 on pressure signs and knowing when I am getting into dangerous territory.

Also how do companies like Buffalo Bore make 357 loads that go 1700fps out of a revolver while keeping it safe? You won't find those load suggestions in any book, so how do they do it safely?

Most likely they don't use pressure measuring equipment or reference ammunition maintained to industry standards. They aren't members of SAAMI, so my take is that they are using non-canister powders not available to the public and working up loads by the seat of their pants. They will probably keep at it until they get sued. There is no free lunch. They are either lying about performance or assembling dangerous loads.

My testing of Buffalo Bore ammo in .32 ACP didn't approach their claimed velocity and few guns in my collection would run the stuff. I designed my own bullets, tested my own loads and also ran guns to destruction. I have since put out recipes for safe loads which match or exceed theirs.

[Outpost75]

Yea I'm done with really hot loads of Unique or faster burning powder. But how are you suppose to know when you are in the danger zone? 6.5gr of unique is far below what middle and high loads for 158gr are. I'm not doubting the knowledge, just trying to figure out how you would know.

Not sure which manual you are using for your source load data? All published data older than the mid 1980s is extremely suspect. You should use a currently published source of published data fired using the exact powder, primers and bullets which you are using. If using older Hercules rather than current Alliant powder, it is OK to cautiously use the older data which is contemporary to the manufacture date of your powder, but I stay 10% below published maximums.

I say this because in many loading manuals prior to the mid-1980s max. loads were not always pressure tested. Subjective pressure signs such as sticky extraction or flattened primers do not appear until you have far exceeded safe revolver limits. I would not rely on load manuals prior to 1990 unless pressure data is published along with the loads and it is clear whether they used radial copper or piezoelectric methods of pressure measurement. This is necessary because the reference ammunition calibration standards and data analysis conventions are entirely different. If you use other components, different bullets, changing primers or seating depth, all bets are off.

I find the Speer No.11 and later manuals to be OK. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, 2010 is also good.

Checking Alliant's website today they list 6 grains of Unique as the maximum load in .357 for a 158-grain Speer SWC lead bullet. They no longer list Unique at all for full-charge loads with jacketed bullets in .357. Therein lies what we call in LE "a clue." They do list data for BE86, but my experience with that particular powder is extremely limited, being mostly in 9x19mm and .40 S&W, not in .38 Special or .357.

Keep in mind that SAAMI Max. pressure is not a machine loading limit, but the Pmax or maximum statistical individual pressure, aka X-Bar + 3 Sigma limit.

In over 20 years professional engineering experience in the firearms industry and military I do have a little experience at this.

[missionary5155]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

[mozeppa]

living on the edge will get you hurt or killed.

never trust "high pressure signs" learn before as much as you can .... don't get in a rush. it'll always be there.
you just can't load up a bunch of "light speed" rounds and go shoot them.

something itches in the back of my head.....are you 16 years old?

[Tar Heel]

The manual you are looking at which was published within the last few years, establishes a RANGE of powder weight from a minimum to a maximum. Your specific most efficient (accurate) load will be somewhere between the minimum and the maximum data points. Avoid going below the minimum data point and definitely avoid going near or above the maximum data point. If a range is 10 grains, I make 5 sets of test loads in x grain increments. I always shoot for at least 5 sets of testable loads.

The minimum and maximum data points can vary among manufacturers and vary across the years. Propellants formulations change, test equipment is different among testing entities, experience has indicated changes, new powders are available, and the list goes on as to why the data varies across the field and the length of the field.

In all my years of handloading, I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, started at a max load. I have always crept up to that point seeking the most accurate load within the two data points. That has saved me from disaster a few times. Once with Blue Dot in the 9mm and once with Herco in the 357 Mag. I admit there were times my intuition said "go for it" but my better judgement prevailed. I still have all 10 fingers.

In all my years reloading, I have only had two cartridges perform best at the high end of the load spectrum in MY GUNS. One cartridge is the 300 Win Mag and the other is the .25-06. OK a third one is the 411-JDJ. These are the only cartridges I load near the max loads and I know I am dancing a fine line. If anything changes on me a real rude surprise may be around the corner waiting for me. I trust that the manufacturers have a little built in safety to cover that area of probability - but then again.....

Hope this mind dump may help some. Just please be careful around the max data points. You are dancing with demons there.

[fredj338]

go up in 1/2gn amounts till you get the most accurate load with that particular boolit and powder combination not necessarily the max load listed

Depending on powder. 1/2gr increments can be a disaster. Powders like TG go from starting to max in about 1/2gr.
I divide the powder burn rate chart into 3 levels for handgun; fast, medium & slow. With fast powders, workups are 1/10gr increments. With medium 2/10gr, with slow 4/10gr workups. This will let you chart vel gains & see where the linear increase flattens out, a sign your pressures are hitting max. When you see pressures signs, you are generally already at max.

[guy_with_boolits]

Cloverleafs are easy....just keep moving the target closer.....and shoot three shot groups.

BTW, the best custom tuned pistols I have seen cannot do better than 2 1/2” groups at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest. If you can put 5 shots into 2” at 25 yards, you are doing very well. Keep your expectations realistic.

Huh? 1.3" 50yds 1911 from a RR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Xh-DDwy5E

[Tar Heel]

Attachment 286349

[Tar Heel]

Attachment 286350

[Duckiller]

In an older manual, I believe it was either Speer or Hornady they gathered every 38 Special revolver that anyone that work at their factory had. Loaded a bunch of ammo to a reasonable level and started shooting and testing. As I recall velocities were all over the place, pressures were all over the place, accuracy varied greatly. Point of the exercise was that guns vary greatly and use their info as a guide but work up loads slowly and carefully. Early on I loaded 50 rounds to a manual's max. Whole bunch of H110 ,mag primer ,don't remember the bullet weight. It was a REAL hot load. Once I shot the 50 rounds nothing was ever loaded that hot again. Take your time in working up loads. Do increments of a few rounds. You will find accurate loads this way and will not end up with a bunch of ammo too hot to shoot. There is no rush to do anything. If you HAVE to have ammo tomorrow, buy it. All of this is a hobby ,relax and enjoy it.

[WRideout]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

This has been exactly my experience with those two powders in 357 mag. In my relatively light Mod 19, a near max charge of Unique would cause the revolver to rotate in my grip, and cut the web of my thumb with the cylinder latch button. Now, I use a very moderate charge of 2400 with complete satisfaction. With recoil tamed, it is almost as accurate as my wadcutter 38 spl loads.
Wayne

[Mr_Sheesh]

In 7mm Rem Mag I like H4831, compressed loads, as I figure it's slow enough to be pretty easy on the rifle.

Hammering a firearm - just because you CAN - seems a bad idea to me, as if it should go KABOOM, it's your face, hands, eyes, and other precious bits right there next to that 55k PSI BOMB that you just forced to go off. I have better things to do than blowing up my precious firearms If you feel differently, uh OK...

In handguns you can't really use H4831, OK, but for the more powerful loads I use the slowest powder that works well (if it doesn't burn well it's too slow, and/or it's too slow for your barrel length.) For plinkers, no problem with Bullseye or Red Dot or whatever, but a 45 Colt max load? You will want to pick a slower powder, most likely. Faster for snubs, is OK.

Slower powders keep pushing the bullet or boolit as it travels down the barrel, tend to get the highest velocity, and as there is lower pressure, stress the barrel and action less. If you can't understand why stressing the firearm that's right in your face, LESS, is important, please think on it, consider why KABOOMS are bad, I have faith that you will figure it out

And I am an accuracy fiend, I just plain don't load for max pressure / velocity, I want to hit what I am shooting at. (That said, about 40 of the 160 Gr. J-word bullet loads I make for 7mm Rem Mag fired in one afternoon, will get my shoulder sore for a few days, BUT they're acceptable because I can take that Coyote that was a ridiculous distance away DOWN with 1 round, BOOM, WHACK, THUD, which is the whole idea. Never shot a big game animal, so far, with that rifle. Betting it'd hammer them well.)

Reloading your own ammo gives you great power, use it wisely

[fredj338]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

I have acutally not seen that happen, jmo. I have used Unique in 9mm +P loads, it shows very linear vel gains, tells me pressures are not spiking.

[Three44s]

Unique is a great powder at mid range pressures but it does not make sense at max.

I run Skeeter Skelton range with it and switch to HS 6 for more horse power, not max with that powder either mind you.

If I want more, I move up to 2400 and then to 296 and H110 for real horse power in a revolver.

I may have missed it but the thing that hammers lead boolits (and guns) is peak pressure. But turning to slower powders we are lengthening the dwell time of the boolit transitioning from the cartridge at rest to its exit from the muzzle.

Faster powders over stress boolits at peak pressures. Fast powders are fine at lower pressures for lighter loads, but when it’s time to up the ante, a slower powder fits the task much better.

The same thing applies going down in charge weight. There is a floor of sorts with slower powders where you do not want to drop below (WW 296 and H 110 are prime examples) and you must drop back to a faster powder as you lower your load intensity.

Lots of folks want just one powder but there are some very good reasons to not force all of your loading with just one flavor and the most important one is safety!

I think the OP needs to go “to the wood shed” AND READ a number of full fledged Reloading manuals cover to cover!

I think he’s stricken with instant gratification and must break that affliction.

If he had read even a cursory amount from any one of them he would have never gotten into this crazy notion that you can just pick up a manual, find a bullet seemingly close to his and pour the max charge in and let the “pendulum” swing!

Rant off

Three44s