8x57 Pull Downs and Reloads

[Gazz]

I have a small quantity of 8x57 ammo that I believe is Turkish. After watching a Forgotten Weapons episode about using cheap ammo in nice guns with particular comments about Turkish 8x57 (he cracked a stock on a K98), I am hesitant to shoot it. So, I pulled the bullet on one which came out quite easily in spite of the what looked to be a serious crimp I found it was boxer primed and filled with flake powder under a nickel jacketed bullet. My thought is to sprinkle the powder in my garden and refill with a known powder and reseat the bullets. I am guessing that the primers are corrosive so proper cleaning after shooting would be required. At the present, I am not sure what the bullets weigh but would use a light load from a manual that is appropriate for the bullet. Any thoughts on this plan?

[TNsailorman]

I have never heard of ammo cracking a stock. If the recoil is that great, one of two things are most likely to blame. Either the stock was cracked already or extremely weak to begin with, or he was shooting something besides 8x57mm ammo. I read about a guy many years ago that had a custom rifle made to hunt in Africa and he insisted on an extremely figured stock made very light for his .458 Winchester. The rifle cracked on him before he even got to Africa to hunt and he ended up having to take a "off the rack" rifle to Africa with him. I have shot over 300 rounds of turkish 8x57mm thru a German 98 and had no problems. The Turks did load their ammo a little hotter than you find in U. S. made ammo but I had no problems with the ammo I shot. I pulled down some of that ammo and weighed the powder charge and it was some of the most consistant charge weights I have ever found in military surplus ammo. Mine had a square flaked powder also. my experience, james

[Larry Gibson]

Turkish 8x57 is Berdan primed. What was the head stamp of the boxer primed cases you have? Also the weight of the bullet and the weight of the powder charge please?

[Texas by God]

The Turkish ammo I bought and shot a few decades ago had 154gr steel jacket bullets, square flake powder, corrosive Berdan primers, came on brass stripper clips in a thin canvas 90 round bandoleer@ $3.90 each. Back when CTD was worthy......
Yes, it's warm but it was fun in Mausers and Hakims. I did have a few that took 2 strikes to discharge. I cleaned the guns with warm water then Hoppes.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[winston10]

The guy from FW does not know much about real shooting . The ammo did not crack the stock . Loose action screws did , as he would not know to check them . As stated Turk is not boxer . There is nothing wrong with shooting it in any bolt rifle . It is a copy of German S ammo ..

[Gazz]

Thanks for the comments.
I only pulled one cartridge down that was loose among the several bandoleers in a ammo can. The headstamp is;

7.9 / FS / 1942 T (crescent moon and star) C

I see one central flash hole and it looks like two very small stab crimps on either side inside the case. The bullet is a silver color and does attract a magnet with a lead core so I guess steel jacket. I'll take one from a bandoleer and pull it down but it sounds like you folks think I'm good to go with it as is.

[Larry Gibson]

That is standard Turkish made 8x57 ammunition.

The "central flash hole" you saw is not actually a flash hole but an indentation creating the anvil in the primer hole. Berdan primers do not have an integral anvil in them as do boxer primers. Berdan primed cases will have one or two smaller flash holes off the the side of the anvil.

As winston10 mentions, the Turk 8x57 is a copy of the standard German "S" cartridge. Some think it is "warm" or "hot" because the case necks can split on firing and the bolt lift can be "hard". I have measured the pressure of several different lots of the Turk ammo and it is consistent with Similar German "S" milsurp ammunition. The psi average varied lot to lot of course running from 52K to 60K psi. The two different lots of Turk '42 I tested ran 58K and 60K psi with velocities consistent at 2850 - 2880 fps from the 23" barrel of the test rifle [VZ24/47]. Pulling the bullets and powder and loading them in primed W-W cases yielded the same psi but with easy/normal extraction. The extraction/hard bolt lift/split cases with the Turk cases is because the Turks did not anneal the shoulder/necks after forming the cases. The cases have become brittle so the necks can split and the obturated cases on firing do not contract .... that is the problem.

The flake powder is Nobel powder and if not deteriorated is still good to use. I pulled the bullets and re-used the Nobel powder reducing the charge 5%. That reduced the psi and reduced the velocity 100+ fps. Fired Turk cases then extracted normally. I had probably 20% of the case necks split either when the bullet was pulled or when the the neck was sized with a NS die sans the decap pin. The Nobel powder is very similar to 3031/4895 in burn rate.

Of course, if you don't want to use the Berdan primed Turk cases you can load the bullets and Nobel powder in Boxer primed cases. Reducing the powder charge 5 or 10% makes for a comfortable load.

[Gazz]

I had thought about the central mark to be the opposite side of the berdan primer anvil after I posted my reply. I guess I'll enjoy it as it is.
Thanks for that useful information.

[Dutchman]

A friend gave me a shopping bag full of this Turk primed ammo after he pulled the bullets and dumped the powder. I use it to this day for cast bullet loads in my several 8x57 Mausers.

Dutch

[dnegative]

The guy from FW does not know much about real shooting . The ammo did not crack the stock . Loose action screws did , as he would not know to check them . As stated Turk is not boxer . There is nothing wrong with shooting it in any bolt rifle . It is a copy of German S ammo ..

Yeap, what a load of **** that the ammo caused the crack.
Laminate K98 stock, either the recoil lug was set back in the stock or it had loose screws. My money is on the recoil lug.
196gr 8x57 has far more recoil than any 7.62x52, over pressure or not.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Back in the 80's I bought thousands of rounds of surplus 8x57, Turkish, other headstamps. My experience was similar to Larry Gibson's and I pretty much followed the same process for using it up. Still have quite a bit, some has 1929 headstamps, occasional misfire but still usable for 'casual' practice.

[Epidote]

That is standard Turkish made 8x57 ammunition.

The "central flash hole" you saw is not actually a flash hole but an indentation creating the anvil in the primer hole. Berdan primers do not have an integral anvil in them as do boxer primers. Berdan primed cases will have one or two smaller flash holes off the the side of the anvil.

As winston10 mentions, the Turk 8x57 is a copy of the standard German "S" cartridge. Some think it is "warm" or "hot" because the case necks can split on firing and the bolt lift can be "hard". I have measured the pressure of several different lots of the Turk ammo and it is consistent with Similar German "S" milsurp ammunition. The psi average varied lot to lot of course running from 52K to 60K psi. The two different lots of Turk '42 I tested ran 58K and 60K psi with velocities consistent at 2850 - 2880 fps from the 23" barrel of the test rifle [VZ24/47]. Pulling the bullets and powder and loading them in primed W-W cases yielded the same psi but with easy/normal extraction. The extraction/hard bolt lift/split cases with the Turk cases is because the Turks did not anneal the shoulder/necks after forming the cases. The cases have become brittle so the necks can split and the obturated cases on firing do not contract .... that is the problem.

The flake powder is Nobel powder and if not deteriorated is still good to use. I pulled the bullets and re-used the Nobel powder reducing the charge 5%. That reduced the psi and reduced the velocity 100+ fps. Fired Turk cases then extracted normally. I had probably 20% of the case necks split either when the bullet was pulled or when the the neck was sized with a NS die sans the decap pin. The Nobel powder is very similar to 3031/4895 in burn rate.

Of course, if you don't want to use the Berdan primed Turk cases you can load the bullets and Nobel powder in Boxer primed cases. Reducing the powder charge 5 or 10% makes for a comfortable load.

A 10% powder reduction also works.

[Larry Gibson]

A 10% powder reduction also works.

That it does.....

[tomme boy]

I had some 42 date that went 3052fps out of a turk m38. 2900 out of my m48 yugo

[Larry Gibson]

Both lots of '42 I tested ran 2849 and 2873 fps (muzzle) out of my VZ24 with 23" barrel. The psi ran 58,700 and 60,100. Warm, yes, but still comparable to German WWII military specifications.

[tomme boy]

Turk m38 is a 29" barrel. I also ran some copper jacketed Turk ammo that ran the same speed if I remember right. A case of that was mixed in with the 12 cases I bought from Century Arms. Easy to tell the difference it had a copper bullet and green primer sesealant. And was 50 or 51 dated