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Thread: Winchester Super Handicap

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Winchester Super Handicap

    I have a pound of Winchester Super Handicap that I want to find a use for and save some of my more "familiar" powders. In one powder rate burn chart, it is rated #28. Trail Boss is rated at #27. I have no knowledge or experience with Handicap. I am looking for reasons why I can not start developing a load, using Trail Boss data, starting at low charges and working up. Not sure what I want to use the Handicap in at this point. Maybe cast loads in 7.7 Jap, 8MM Mauser, 30-06, 308 Win, maybe some pistol calibers, etc. I still need to determine which calibers that Trail Boss is a candidate for in the first place.

    Anyone know why Handicap would behave significantly different than Trail Boss and should not be used in these cartridges? Anyone using Handicap in these rounds? Quickload does not list Handicap so the best possible match would Trail Boss, as a starter, to estimate pressures.

    Any bear traps out there? Don't want to do something stupid.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Contact Winchester and ask them. No one else has the information to adequately answer your question.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  3. #3
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    Listen to Wayne he is right with this.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    I've had a pound of that stuff on my shelf also for the last 10 years. Every couple of years I take a run at trying to find a recipe for it and hit the wall. I did find some comments recently saying its a very fast powder which I take as not being similar to Trail Boss. Nobody that I found has come up with anything worth repeating for using it except for its original use. Shotguns. So, it sits.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I personally don't every load anything that's not published somewhere by a reputable source. Powder burn rate charts are good for comparisons to get an idea of what I may want to buy, but they are not load data.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master JMax's Avatar
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    I took a chance with Hodgdon international shotgun powder to use in light 10mm revolver loads and in some heavy bullet 9 mm loads in an 8 shot cylinder conversion. Burn rate was a factor with this powder being between Clays and 231 and case fill was another. It is a bulky powder and I built a load ladder from very light to potential mid range loads. I pulled the trigger the first time with a great deal of trepidation and luckily there were no pressure signs in any loads tried. I hit pleasant accurate loads in the middle of my ladders. But I would not try this powder in any of my cast rifle bullet loads as there are too many variables involved. Would I do this again, probably not as I was very lucky.

    Doing this with a light pistol load is fraught with pitfalls and needs to be approached with care and none the loads that I developed will be shared.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I have powder burn rate charts from 3 different sources. Some of the powders are close to being rated the same, but none are the exact same, and there are a few huge discrepancies.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Winchester Super Handicap is NOT going to work the same as Trail Boss. Trail Boss was designed for a different purpose entirely.
    I have used WSH in handgun loads with success but not in rifles. I have no idea how it would perform in a rifle.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JMax View Post
    I took a chance with Hodgdon international shotgun powder to use in light 10mm revolver loads and in some heavy bullet 9 mm loads in an 8 shot cylinder conversion. Burn rate was a factor with this powder being between Clays and 231 and case fill was another. It is a bulky powder and I built a load ladder from very light to potential mid range loads. I pulled the trigger the first time with a great deal of trepidation and luckily there were no pressure signs in any loads tried. I hit pleasant accurate loads in the middle of my ladders. But I would not try this powder in any of my cast rifle bullet loads as there are too many variables involved. Would I do this again, probably not as I was very lucky.

    Doing this with a light pistol load is fraught with pitfalls and needs to be approached with care and none the loads that I developed will be shared.
    International Clays is a wonderful 308 Winchester powder. 8 grains or so with a 185 grain or thereabouts cast bullets is just supersonic and very accurate as well, at least in one of my rifles. Would make a very good 308 squirrel load.
    Rick

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Powder burn rate has way too many variables involved to use for loading. Just the temperature/pressure variable causes these values to change from cartridge to cartridge. The size of the combustion chamber changes the burn rate.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I have been out of town and just getting back to the forum. Thanks everyone for the advice. Time rethink this issue.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks again for all the valuable input.

    I talked with a Hodgdon Tech today about the use of AA Super Handicap in pistols and rifle cartridges. He indicated that there was not any Hodgdon pistol or rifle developed data for WSH. He did indicate that a request had been issued to Hodgdon staff to look at the development. I told him that I was looking at a burn rate chart that indicated that WSH was one place removed for Trail Boss. He said that was incorrect; there is a significant difference. He indicated powders with close burn rates include: Hodgdon Universal, Hodgdon International, Ramshot Silhouette, Ramshot True Blue and Accurate No. 5.

    Thought I would use QuickLoad and see if I could gain any loading information for this burn rate information. I have a mild 8MM Mauser load using 11.3 grains of Red Dot and a 180 grain cast boolit. Predicted chamber pressure is 28,608 psi. I reran the loading data only changing the powder type to those listed above; except for International, which QuickLoad does not list. Below is the predicted pressures and the Filling/L.R.

    Powder, PSI, Filling/L.R.
    Red Dot, 28,608, 47.0%
    Hodgdon Universal, 23,644, 36.4%
    Ramshot Silhouette, 18,080, 26.9%
    True Blue, 15,693, 23.0%
    Accurate No. 5, 15,897, 22.7%

    Appears that all the powders have lower chamber pressure generation than RD on a powder per grain rate. So far, so good. All the powders have a powder ranging form 1.59 to 1.60 grains/cubic cm. RD has a density of 1.64 grains/cubic cm. So the suggested powders actually occupy a slightly larger amount of the case capacity. I really wish I had the powder density of WSH to compare.

    Since the burn rates for all the "close to WSH" powders is faster than 2400, I am thinking a case filler may not be necessary. Any thoughts from the more knowledgeable?

    I may, after thinking through this again to see what I may have missed, try a WSH load less than 11.3 grains and see how it performs. So far, everything indicates chamber pressure of 11.3 grain WSH load should be less than 11.3 grains of Red Dot.

    Would love to hear your comments!!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I had another conversation with Winchester/Hodgdon about WSH. I wanted to get some information on the powder density and the energy content on a kJ/kg basis. I was told that this is proprietary information and not released to the public. Tried a different approach. Asked if WSH had an energy content greater or less than another Winchester/Hodgdon powder. No go there either. This information is available in QuickLoad for a lot of the Winchester/Hodgdon powders. Guess QL bought a pound of the Winchester/Hodgdon powders and performed the bomb calorimetry tests themselves.

    Earlier conversations with Winchester/Hodgdon indicated that there was a significant difference between the burn rates of WSH and Trail Boss. However, the burn rates for WSH and Trail Boss, in the burn chart on the Winchester Reloading Center, are #23 and #24. Not sure why he stated there was a significant difference.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You have no idea of the degree of difference between any two numbers on a burn rate chart. They are individually calculated and have no factual relationship to one another.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Why don't you use that Handicap powder like I use Titewad .I load 3.0 hrs of it in my 30/06 under 90 gr. lubricated leealox.Can't be an overload.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alferd Packer View Post
    Why don't you use that Handicap powder like I use Titewad .I load 3.0 hrs of it in my 30/06 under 90 gr. lubricated leealox.Can't be an overload.
    Thanks, this seems to be a very mild load. Once I start, I will be starting with data from a powder that I know has a faster burnrate and a greater heat of explosion rate than WSH. Still working on developing data that fits that criteria.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    WSH Update

    Thought I would provide an update on my obsession on finding a use for some Winchester Super Handicap (WSH) powder that I have on hand. Hodgdon/Winchester does not have any pistol or rifle loading data published for this powder. Conversations with Hodgdon/Winchester did not provide any information on the energy content of their powders. Hodgdon/Winchester considers this propriety information. OK, I understand.

    I thought I would see what information I could gleam, on the WSH powder, from what information is available. Hodgdon/Winchester has a Reloading Site that provides suggested loads for pistol, rifle and shotgun. Since this is a shotgun powder, I elected to ask for all loads for a 2¾" Federal Gold Medal Plastic Shells; Lead Shot, 1 1/8 Shot Weight, with all applicable Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR powders. The Site returned 1,037 suggested loads at various velocities and shotgun chamber pressures. These suggested loads contain shotgun loading data for WSH. I downloaded the data into an Excel spreadsheet and sorted the loads by shotgun chamber pressure. I then eliminated all loads less than 10,000 psi. This reduced the total loads from 1,037 to 172 loads. I was only interested in the powder charge weights that generated the highest shotgun chamber pressures.

    The 172 loads were then sorted to provide the average, minimum and maximum shotgun chamber pressures by powder. There are 11 powders used in the 172 loads. For each load, the published shotgun chamber pressure was divide by the suggested powder charge to produce a psi/gn value. For purposes of review/safety, the maximum psi/gn for each load was used. The data was sorted to arrange the maximum psi/gn values in an ascending order.

    Using the Hodgdon/Winchester Burn Rate Chart, published burn rates were attached to each of the 11 powders in the data base except for WAALite. Hodgdon/Winchester does not list that powder in their chart. There seems to be good agreement that an increase in chamber pressure is observed with an increase in burn rate.

    Duh, nothing new here. I think everyone recognizes the faster burning powders produce a higher chamber pressure on a psi per grain powder charge. But it does give me some assurance that WSH does not violate that general conclusion. This data are presented below.

    Manufacturer-------------------Powder-------------PSI/GRS AVERAGE--------------PSI/GRS MIN.-------------PSI/GRS MAX------------Win. Burn Rate Chart
    Hodgdon------------------------Longshot-------------------294.52------------------------261.78-------------------332.37---------------------------51
    Hodgdon------------------------Universal-------------------405.03------------------------388.46-------------------416.00---------------------------33
    Winchester----------------------Super Hcp-----------------430.37------------------------410.57-------------------445.38---------------------------24
    IMR------------------------------IMR Green-----------------477.12------------------------469.48-------------------483.41---------------------------20
    Winchester----------------------WST------------------------455.18------------------------423.73-------------------490.48---------------------------22
    Hodgdon-------------------------Internat'l------------------474.49------------------------423.73-------------------516.91---------------------------25
    Hodgdon-------------------------700-X----------------------528.07------------------------495.05-------------------553.85---------------------------12
    IMR-------------------------------IMR Red-------------------546.87------------------------515.46-------------------600.00---------------------------10
    Hodgdon-------------------------Clays-----------------------555.71------------------------502.39-------------------602.34----------------------------9
    Winchester-----------------------WAALite-------------------596.45------------------------438.30-------------------605.88-----------------------------?
    Hodgdon--------------------------Titewad-------------------602.56------------------------533.33-------------------687.12-----------------------------5

    I decided to develop a load in a 7.7 Jap Arisaka rifle. The Arisaka action, some proclaim, is one of the strongest action in the world. Also, I figured an overcharge in a large volume rifle case maybe more forgiving than in a small volume pistol case.
    I have some PPU 7.7 Jap cases and I have some cases that have be formed from HXP 30-06 cases. Since I would be using both in the load development, I decided to check the case capacities. Five of each were selected for capacity measurements. These were fired, unsized cases with the spent primer. I was surprised to find that there was less than a 1 % difference in the case capacities. Data are presented below. Values are in grains.

    HXP Dry- --HXP Wet---Volume----PPU Dry----PPU Wet----Volume
    189.1--------252.9------63.8------187.7--------252.2-------64.5
    188.1--------252.1------64.0------187.0--------251.6-------64.6
    186.7--------250.9------64.2------187.5--------252.4-------64.9
    182.9--------247.1------64.2------188.4--------253.0-------64.6
    184.9--------249.4------64.5------187.3--------251.7-------64.4

    Avg 186.3-----250.5-------64.1------187.6-----252.2--------64.6
    SD 2.2---------2.1---------0.2--------0.5---------0.5---------0.2

    I have been shooting a Lee 1.6 cc dipper (should be 11.3 gn RD per Lee) load of Red Dot powder in this rifle. No excessive pressure indications. A nice rounded fired primer. I decided to see what velocities this load produced as a reference starting point for a WSH load development. Pulled five rounds from the loading block and the results are below. I doubt if I can pull five more and get that small of a standard deviation.
    Red Dot (1.6 cc Lee Dipper)
    1364
    1356
    1361
    1364
    1362

    Avg 1361.4
    SD 2.9
    Spread 8

    The load development. I am loading a Lyman 314299 cast that weighs, after PC and GC installation, 212 grains. The bore slugs 0.315”. I have found that the as-cast PCed cast boolit, without the GC installed, requires seating pressure in excess of finger pressure to seat it into a fired case. It is only a very slight additional pressure required. Even with the GC installed, the seating pressure does not increase significantly. And the bore riding section of the boolit will still chamber. I seat them a little bit long and each round is reseated to the depth of the rifling. Should be zero swaging of the boolit by the case neck and zero headspace for each round. The cases should last a long time.
    All rounds are weighed powder charges; not Lee dipper. I loaded ten rounds using 11.0 gn of Red Dot; used as a baseline. Also, I loaded five rounds each of 10 gn, 11 gn and 12 gn of WSH. Figured I would start with a load below a current RD load that is not showing any pressure issues. The 1,208 fps reading for one of the 11.0 gn WSH is highly suspect and I can not explain it. I suspect the chronograph did not get a reading on one of the sensors and I did not see the error notation with the velocity given. If the 1208 value is eliminated, then Average= 1319 fps, SD=5.6 fps and ES=13 fps. This is more in line with what is expected. This reading is the only one eliminated from the string of shots.

    -----------Red Dot (11.0 gn)------10 gns WSH---11 gns WSH-------12 gns WSH
    Round 1----------1295------------------1240-----------1312---------------1399
    Round 2----------1281-----------------1240------------1299---------------1379
    Round 3----------1276-----------------1238------------1312---------------1401
    Round 4----------1291-----------------1235------------1312---------------1391
    Round 5----------1285-----------------1230------------1208---------------1390
    Round 6----------1286
    Round 7----------1273
    Round 8----------1272
    Round 9----------1271
    Round 10---------1284

    Avg--------1281.4----------------1236.6----------1288.6------------1392.0
    SD-----------7.8---------------------3.8-------------40.6----------------7.8
    Spread------24----------------------10--------------104-----------------22

    Accuracy. The 7.7 Jap Arisaka rifle used for the development seems to product 50-yard groups of about 3"-4” at 50 yards. This is for both the Red Dot powder and the WSH powder. Nothing to write home about. That is a shame since the powders seem to produce consistent internal ballistics. The POA requires the ladder anti-aircraft sight to be bottomed out. Using the combat sight, the point of impact is about 8 inches below the POA.

    Conclusions. Based on chronograph results and primer observations, it appears, at this time, I have a rifle load that can approach 1,400 fps without any pressures issues. The WSH powder burns clean and there is no indication of yawing at 50 yards. I bought this powder because there was only three pounds of powder on the shelf at the time. And the other two were suitable for a 50 BMG. Guess I deserve to have to go through this exercise to find a load for it. But I can use it to shoot 8” steel plates, off-hand, at 50 yards without any problems. And it was actually fun to do this development. It should be noted that this is not a recommendation to use any powder charge of any weight WSH in any rifle, pistol or shotgun load.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    I decided to see how the WSH powder would perform with a rifle capable of good groups. That being a 308 Win bolt action. Knowing the average 7.7 Jap case capacity (64.1 gn water) and the average 308 Win case capacity (56 gn water), a 308 Win charge was calculated that should approximate the pressure of the 11.0 gn WSH load in the 7.7 Jap rifle. A 9.6 gn WSH load was calculated. A starting load of 9.0 gn WSH was selected. A lighter boolit weight, C309-170-F, was used since that was what was available at the time. Loads between 9.0 gn and 12.5 gn WSH were shot. Five rounds of each load were fired, and velocities measured. Good standard deviations and minimal spreads were obtained for all the loads. Inspecting the primers, there were not any indications of any pressure issues. The fps velocity per grain of WSH powder used seemed to decrease as the charge weight increased. The results are presented below.

    -----------308 Win Data--C309-170-F Boolit (178.5 gn w/GC)-------------

    Charge--------9.0 gn WSH------10.0 gn WSH------11.0 gn WSH------11.5 gn WSH------12.0 gn WSH------12.5 gn WHS
    Round 1-----------1379----------------1432-----------------1531-----------------1564-----------------1592----------------1643
    Round 2-----------1370----------------1435-----------------1519-----------------1553-----------------1597----------------1638
    Round 3-----------1361----------------1443-----------------1512-----------------1566-----------------1590----------------1641
    Round 4-----------1351----------------1445-----------------1509-----------------1552-----------------1609----------------1656
    Round 5-----------1354----------------1438-----------------1517-----------------1562-----------------1604----------------1639
    Average-----------1363----------------1439-----------------1518-----------------1559-----------------1598----------------1643
    Std. Dev.-----------10.3-----------------4.8-------------------7.6--------------------5.8--------------------7.2------------------6.5
    Spread--------------28-------------------13--------------------22---------------------14--------------------19-------------------18
    50-yd, C-C”--------0.8------------------1.0-------------------0.9---------------------2.75------------------1.5------------------1.1
    fps/gn--------------151-----------------144------------------138--------------------136-------------------133-----------------132


    Since I had actual boolit data, case data and WSH velocities, I decided to see how WSH performed against a powder that has data loaded in QuickLoad. I ran each of the WSH loads as RD loads in QL and the results are given below. Seems WSH is slightly slower than RD and seems to track its velocities fairly well. Maybe some day I will chrony the Red Dot loads to see how they match-up against the WSH loads.
    Charge--------9.0 gn WSH------10.0 gn WSH------11.0 gn WSH------11.5 gn WSH------12.0 gn WSH------12.5 gn WHS
    WHS----------------1363----------------1439-----------------1518-----------------1559-----------------1598----------------1643
    Red Dot------------1400----------------1479-----------------1553-----------------1589-----------------1625----------------1659
    Delta------------------37-------------------40---------------------35--------------------30--------------------27-------------------16

    These results are specific to my rifle and are not being suggested as appropriate for any other use.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    When doing this DO NOT throw out extreme variable results. They could be the result of an unstable powder in that application.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    good point

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check