The British Are Tumbling!

[rtyler8140]

So I picked up a Lee Enfield No 4 Mk1* 2 groove awhile ago. Bore is bright and shiney and it is overall in very good shape. I have been struggling to get it to shoot cast. I am using water dropped coww for my alloy and powder coating the boolits. I started with the Lee 312-185 sized to .314 and they tumbled. Took a step backwards and ran about 40 rounds of factory ammo and the thing is a tack driver. So I knew at this point it is a very capable rifle. Decided to bump the 312-185 up to .316, still tumbled. For those tests I was using loads of 10g Unique and 13g of red dot since they both have seemed to shoot well in any 30 cal I've used. I did some research and digging and got my hands on a Lyman 314299. Was lucky and got one that drops .315 as cast. I add a gas check with my .314 sizer then add 2 coats of PC to get it up to .318. These loads showed some real promise and did not tumble. My best groups came from a load of 12g of unique and another load of 17g of 2400 (picture of this group below). Before I got my hands on the Lyman mold, I ordered a mold from arsenal (311-176 LFN) and had them bump it up to .315. It's a beautiful mold, but they accidentally made it a plain base instead of a gas check. I didn't discover this until I had started casting with it. Since I already had some cast, I figure I would powder coat and load some up. I did 3 loads of Unique (11g,12g,13g) and 2 loads of 2400 (16g,17g). To my surprise, I had quite a few tumble and keyhole (picture below). I could use some help understanding why the arsenal boolits tumbled and the Lyman did not? I don't have a chrono, but based on load data, the arsenal were probably going a little slower. Have a picture below of the 2 boolits side by side. Any input or thoughts would be appreciated!

[samari46]

Could be that you are not pushing them fast enough. Next time at the range see if someone has a chronograph and let them send some round down range and get some velocity readings. I shoot the 314299 in a Finn M27 and estimate that they are going about 1600-1700 feet per second. Powder charge is 20.0 grains IMR 4759 which is no longer made. I've seen that exact powder charge used in 30-06 rifles as well. That and suggest that you slug the barrel and see what the groove and land dimensions are. Frank

[LAGS]

I have a Long Branch #4 that I shoot with the 314-299 Boolits.
I found that I have to cast them out of harder lead and around 1800 fps or they tumble.
People have told me that the two groove barrel is more perticular when shooting cast boolits

[405grain]

I don't own a Lee Enfield, but have heard from friends that have had tumbling issues with the 314299 boolit. Usually their problem stemmed from too low a velocity to get the longer boolit to stabilize. The 48th Lyman reloading handbook lists loads for the 314299 using 2400: the starting load is 15.5 grains at 1404 fps. The max listed load is 20.0 grains at 1713fps. Your 17.0 grain charge might not be fast enough. This may become a problem with a plain based bullet, as that may restrict you to a velocity range which will not stabilize. The only way to find out is to experiment. You could also try lowering the velocity by using small charges of pistol powder. Going slower is counterintuitive, but if the bullets are already tumbling there's not a whole lot to loose by checking it out. (stranger things have happened)

[robertbank]

I found 20 gr of 2400 avg vel 1777 or 22 gr of 4227 avg vel 1707 gave me excellent accuracy out of my 5 groove Longbranch using 314299 bullets. I mounted a scope on my gun and managed groups inside of 1.5" at 100 yards off a bench using ither of those two loads. For my rifle 1700 - 1775 seems ro b the sweet spot using those two powders.

For comparison the Canadian Military round loaded by IVI Industries using 174 gr FMJ ran 2378 fps over my Chrony out of the same gun.

Take Care

Bob

[beemer]

In my experience a 2 groove is a little harder with cast than a 5 groove. The grooves are deep and the lands are wide. The deep grooves to allow for jacket displacement. When the wide lands squeeze it down metal has to go somewhere or just get longer. Slug your barrel and see what it measures. My 2 groove never shot as well as the 5 but never wild nor did it tumble. As for jacketed one is about as good as the other.

The 314299 is a bore rider, is the nose snug in the bore ? The driving bands are short, maybe a good thing because there is less to displace. Could also be velocity as stated above. The first thing I would do is shoot the biggest bullet I had and drive it a little faster.

I can't say any of the above is the answer, just something else to think about.

Dave

[rtyler8140]

Thank you for all the responses. I apologize as my ramblings must have caused some confusion. The Lyman 314299 sized to .318 is shooting fantastic in the Enfield. My problem is the Arsenal 311-176 is the one that is tumbling even when sized to .318. for plinking I plan on just using the 314299, but was hoping to develop a load with the 311-176 LFN to use for hunting based on the nice fat nose. Would love to get my hands on the NOE 316-213 HP mold and use the cup points, but he's been sold out of it for months.

[robertbank]

Thank you for all the responses. I apologize as my ramblings must have caused some confusion. The Lyman 314299 sized to .318 is shooting fantastic in the Enfield. My problem is the Arsenal 311-176 is the one that is tumbling even when sized to .318. for plinking I plan on just using the 314299, but was hoping to develop a load with the 311-176 LFN to use for hunting based on the nice fat nose. Would love to get my hands on the NOE 316-213 HP mold and use the cup points, but he's been sold out of it for months.

What does 311-176 drop out of the mold at? Does the .318 sizing die size down the bullet or barely touch the sides? I have shot plain based bullets in my 30-30 and .303 Brit water quenched WW alloy to 1700 fps without GC's and no leading or other discernable issues.

Take Care

Bob

[rtyler8140]

What does 311-176 drop out of the mold at? Does the .318 sizing die size down the bullet or barely touch the sides? I have shot plain based bullets in my 30-30 and .303 Brit water quenched WW alloy to 1700 fps without GC's and no leading or other discernable issues.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

It drops from the mold at .315 and with powder coat it is right at .318. I don't have a .318 sizing die yet. I bought a .314 to open up to .318, just haven't done it yet.

[robertbank]

Bob,

It drops from the mold at .315 and with powder coat it is right at .318. I don't have a .318 sizing die yet. I bought a .314 to open up to .318, just haven't done it yet.

I am thinking your bullets are just not getting enough grasp on the rifling ie they are not sized large enough. That might account for the tumbling. I would feel better if the bullets were dropping out of the mold at .318 + and aftr powder coating the bullets sized down to 318. Right now you are depending on your PC to get to the .318 diameter you seek.

Take Care

Bob

[rtyler8140]

I am thinking your bullets are just not getting enough grasp on the rifling ie they are not sized large enough. That might account for the tumbling. I would feel better if the bullets were dropping out of the mold at .318 + and aftr powder coating the bullets sized down to 318. Right now you are depending on your PC to get to the .318 diameter you seek.

Take Care

Bob

I would think the same thing, but the 314299 drops at .315 and I use PC to get it up to .318. Could the gas check be making the difference?

[robertbank]

I would think the same thing, but the 314299 drops at .315 and I use PC to get it up to .318. Could the gas check be making the difference?

Not likely. I think your issues are with the size of your bullet. The two bullets you are using are completely different. One is a bore rider while the other is not. Do all the 311... bullets tumble?

Take Care

Bob

[Dusty Bannister]

Sounds like you could use an over sized slug to verify the minimum diameter necessary to seal the groove diameter of the bullet. Then you know what to work for. Given the unusually large groove diameter, you may want to consider going to a larger caliber and sizing down, then powder coat and size to exactly what you need. Since you are going to powder coat, the lube grooves are not all that necessary except as a place for the lead to move to when it enters the barrel.

MOLD DC C324-175-1R
MOLD DC C324-175-1R
Details
SKU 90274
Weight 0.96 lbs
MSRP: $29.98
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Quantity Out of stock
Notify me when back in stock

Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a .324 diameter 175 grain round nose bullet suitable for cartridges like 8MM.

Not an ideal solution, but a lot cheaper than a custom mold.

[rtyler8140]

Not likely. I think your issues are with the size of your bullet. The two bullets you are using are completely different. One is a bore rider while the other is not. Do all the 311... bullets tumble?

Take Care

Bob

It looks like the vast majority tumbled. Had a few that made a nice hole in the paper, but could have been dumb luck.

[rtyler8140]

Sounds like you could use an over sized slug to verify the minimum diameter necessary to seal the groove diameter of the bullet. Then you know what to work for. Given the unusually large groove diameter, you may want to consider going to a larger caliber and sizing down, then powder coat and size to exactly what you need. Since you are going to powder coat, the lube grooves are not all that necessary except as a place for the lead to move to when it enters the barrel.

MOLD DC C324-175-1R
MOLD DC C324-175-1R
Details
SKU 90274
Weight 0.96 lbs
MSRP: $29.98
Options
Quantity Out of stock
Notify me when back in stock

Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a .324 diameter 175 grain round nose bullet suitable for cartridges like 8MM.

Not an ideal solution, but a lot cheaper than a custom mold.

Thanks for the PM you sent me, I'll address some of those questions/points in here. I'm not sure if the bore has been lapped. When I got it, it was covered in cosmoline and had been purchased by a gentlemen's back in the 80s through century arms I believe. I think it just lived in his safe. I ran a slightly flattened .311 RB through the barrel. Looks like the dimensions are .304/.315. I had thought about trying the .324, but already having the 314299 working well, I'm looking for more of a flat nose boolit for hunting. I had wondered too about gas cutting being an issue which is why I ordered the mold as a gas check. I guess experimenting with it whenever it arrives will let me know. At this point, I don't think I have run into much leading. Maybe a little, but nothing significant. I think Bob's point about a bore rider versus a non bore rider might be the cause of tumble versus no tumble.

[robertbank]

rtyler8140- If most are tumbling then I am virtually certain the bullets are undersized for the bore. I have had a similar situation with one of my 9MM pistols. Unless your bullets can bite into the rifling and take a spin if you will they will tumble. By all means slug your bore. If you are unsure of yourself take the gun to a gunsmith and have him do it. Ig your 314299 bullet is accurate go with it. If you must have a flat nosed bullet and you can't find what you want in a Commercial mold get one made. Make sure it will drop a bullet a couple thousandths over your bore. Powder coat then size the bullet .001 over your slugged bore information and drill holes neatly into paper of game.

As an aside the 314299 bullet will kill anything walking in the Continental US. The old .303 Brit has killed more game world wide than any other cartridge for certain. It also has done a decent job on two leggeds as well if events in the 19th and 20th century are any criteria.

Take Care

Bob

[NorthMoccasin]

A Forster Hollow Point kit will convert the 314299 into a devastating deer killer. no need for a new FP mould. They make the hollow pointer for use in the Forster trimmer or in a drill press. Works for any caliber.

[Riverside]

try the Greenhill formula to see what bullet length is best for your rifle's twist.

[longbow]

My understanding is that the 2 groove rifles tend to have very large groove diameters. Are you sure it slugged to 0.315"? My 5 groove rifles all run around 0.314" groove and a 0.315"/0.316" boolit shoots well from all of them.

You might take a read through this:

https://303british.com/cast-bullets-...enfield-rifle/

I am a believer in fillers when used appropriately. David Southall says he couldn't get decent accuracy with a cast boolit in a two groove without filler. Follow his directions and give it a try.

Also, something I found using cast boolits in my Lee Enfields was that if I pushed velocity at all I got skidding in the rifling using ACWW. Recovered boolits showed wider grooves than lands on the boolits and there was gas cutting in the wider grooves. By oven heat treating to harden the boolits that problem went away. Shouldn't be an issue with mild loads and mine weren't hot but maybe at the upper end of moderate. My take is that with such a short groove diameter bearing surface for the length and weight of boolit in a relatively fast twist the lead was shearing a bit. Harder boolits solved that. These were NOE 316299's with gas checks.

Longbow

[Driver man]

I think you have several problems one of which you have corrected by using oversize boolits. I think your main problem is an oversize leade causing the boolit to sit incorrectly aligned. An oversize boolit helps take up the slack and centre the boolit better and the Lyman bore rider being longer allows the boolit to centre on the bore. I think I would seat the boolit out as far as can be practically done and see the results. I have several SMLE and shoot subsonic and 1800 fps with 150grain up to 220 grain. One rifle tumbles if boolits are seated normally and shoot accurately once seated out to engage the lands. This rifle also has quite a large case mouth on fired brass . I have tried reloading unsized cases with paperwrapped boolits that are a tight fit to the case with light loads with very good and accurate results.