Swc versus lead hollow point

[Goofy]

My experience with 20 & 12 ga Forster slugs on deer and hogs tells me to expect a flop after the whop. Every time. Never gut shot anything with them except a buzzard little over 50 years ago. There weren’t anything left for the skillet.

[centershot]

Buzzard?? YUCK!! But, to answer the question; I used a 250 gr PB Keith SWC loaded to 1300 fps in my Contender for years. Killed a truckload of deer, through and through wound channel and a blood trail that was easy to follow. That bullet would go straight through, every time. Years before that, when this area was "shotgun only", a 12ga. Ithaca Deerslayer did much the same. tracking was never a problem, if needed. I've never used cast hollowpoints, so can't add to that conversation.

[Bigslug]

I'd be looking at LFN and WFN profiles myself.

With hollowpoints, you have the additional PITA of casting them, plus the headache of determining a matrix of hard-enough-for-the-velocity / soft-enough-for-expansion / tough enough not to fragment. With a 70 (ish) percent meplat, you only have to worry about optimizing the metal for the load pressure, and the load for accuracy. With that formula in mind 150175 grains for .357 and 240-250 for your .44 is plenty.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, I've never shot a slug at game but your observation about gut shot slugs doesn't surprise me at all even tho I wouldn't have considered that to be within the range of this question. But, since you raise the issue, do you believe that rifled cast hollow point shotgun slugs kill deer better than SWC/flat points? Also in keeping with the point of the OP, tell us if you're casting your own rifled slugs or do you get them from someone else?

Would it also surprise us to know what maximum .357/.44 mag handgun velocities and expansion you routinely obtain without stripping or leading with your soft (20:1) big game boolits?

I'm not 100% sure of your first question. If you mean does a typical rifled slug work better than one of the hollow point sabot slugs on deer, then yes. If you mean does a typical rifled slug work better on deer than a SWC from a handgun, then yes X100. A rifled slug was designed so that it can be fired reasonably accurately from any smoothbore shotgun, with most chokes. They do this by having a giant hollow base that allows it to fly nose first without any spin. The rifling is so it can compress through a choke without damaging the barrel. They are not fast by rifle standards, but most are faster than typical shotgun loads. A Federal truball is going about 1600 fps. There is a Remington slugger round that I think does 1900 fps. What happens with these when they hit an animal, is that they flatten out into a coin. A 12 gauge rifled slug can become about 1 1/4" or larger in diameter. It's hard to say, as a broadside shot pretty much always passes through. Recovered slugs are usually steep angle shots that go through major parts of the deer, and recovered slugs can be irregular, and often broken up slightly. They flatten out to a huge shape is the moral of the story.

When I say guts, I'm talking stomach and intestines. Unlike lungs and liver, which act a lot like a firm gelatin, guts are not so elastic, and they are not so watery. A good example is a recent thread about the 220 swift. If you put a 220 swift bullet through the lungs, there isn't much lungs left. The extreme velocity and expansion just tears them up. Now put that 220 swift through the guts, and you wont see much devastation at all. That's why I mentioned the shotgun slug. The damage they do to guts is impressive. Thankfully I've not had to be the one to do it, but often a deer gutshot with a slug will slowly wander off and bed down. Someone in our group does it every year or two, and so far I believe I have recovered every truly gut shot deer. Generally they only walk 50, maybe 100 yards. I always err on the side of waiting longer, but many times we have come back at dark, could see the eyeshine with the lights, and we could finish them off. A gut shot is always lethal, but we have found them 3-4 hours later still barely alive. I would not be surprised if they could suffer a whole night.

You are right though, I am getting us way off topic on things that do not even pertain to handgun hunting. To answer your second question, no I won't surprise anyone. A 20:1 alloy will handle most of your magnum handgun loads. There is no black magic to it. If you get a decent velocity behind it, a hollow point bullet will expand easy enough. Use a binary alloy like 20:1 and there is no monkeying around with brittleness. Hollow points cast just fine. I am extremely picky about my hunting bullets, and I would say it does not take me any longer to cast and sort a handful of hollow points, as it does solids. Just cast them of a binary alloy, and load them to where they are most accurate, easy as that. My current favorite hunting loads in 357 magnum and 44 magnum run in the 1200-1300 fps range. I'm currently playing with a new bullet in 327 federal that is over 1300 fps, although that one is gas checked.

Application is going to be a factor. My experience is whitetail deer in central Minnesota. Every 10 yards a deer makes it about cuts your chances of finding it in half, or at the very least starts to cross property lines. Now I'm farther west in South Dakota, and I'm not sure it matters one bit what I'd use here. Everyone is much more spread out, not many places a deer can crawl into. I could shoot a deer in my back yard, and it would not matter one bit if it ran 200 yards. I can also understand where someone in the mountains might lean towards a solid for the simple reason that you have a lot less control on what shots you can get.

Another example might be the 357 maximum mentioned earlier, depending on what the gun is. If we were talking about a long barreled Contender, even a pistol, you can see some very high velocities from that round, 1900+ fps if you want. Once you get up into that territory, you can get a solid to expand. I have no experience hunting with higher velocity cast bullets, and have to wonder why it would matter what you use if both expand.

[1hole]

I'm not 100% sure of your first question. If you mean does a typical rifled slug work better than one of the hollow point sabot slugs on deer, then yes. If you mean does a typical rifled slug work better on deer than a SWC from a handgun, then yes X100. A rifled slug was designed so that it can be fired reasonably accurately from any smoothbore shotgun....

You clearly missed the OP's point ... and mine too. His issue was about cast SWC vs. cast HP boolits for deer for handguns (.357 and .44 mag) and you seem to have missed that.

His simple question sorta automatically excludes essays on jacketed flat OR hollow points in sabows (for black powder rifles), or rifled slugs for shotguns and, now, any jellied deer guts from high velocity thin jacketed varmint bullets, doesn't it???

No matter, forget it.

[megasupermagnum]

Edit: I'm deleting this, and I would like to apologize J.D.R. I should have stayed on the topic of handguns. I was angry that somebody was purposefully asking me questions to get me to go a way that proved his point. I recently had my own thread that I asked a very specific question, and it was immediately loaded with 75% unthoughtful jerks who refused to read a single word beyond the title, so I understand how frustrating it can be. I try and answer any question I think I can honestly answer, which is why I responded to 1hole in the first place.

[Larry Gibson]

You clearly missed the OP's point ... and mine too. His issue was about cast SWC vs. cast HP boolits for deer for handguns (.357 and .44 mag) and you seem to have missed that.

His simple question sorta automatically excludes essays on jacketed flat OR hollow points in sabows (for black powder rifles), or rifled slugs for shotguns and, now, any jellied deer guts from high velocity thin jacketed varmint bullets, doesn't it???

No matter, forget it.

I don't think megasupermagnum "missed the OP's point"....and neither did I [not that you mentioned me but I agree with megasupermagnum regarding his last post....most do not read the OPs actual question....]

The complete context of J.D.R. (the OP) first post and I do not see where he stated anything further;

"Swc versus lead hollow point

I would like to hunt deer this fall and want to know the effectiveness of either projectile for harvesting game."

There is no mention of "deer" but only "game". There is no mention of "handguns". There is no mention of "357 and 44 mag". Actually there is not even any mention by the OP that the "SWC" and "lead hollow Point" referred to as "projectile" were even cast bullets.

Lots of "wiggle room" in the OP's actual question for all sorts of assumption.........yours also but that does not make your assumptions correct and megasupermagnum's wrong. We are all entitled to our opinions on the matter.

[Edward]

And again (LARRYS RIGHT)

[45-70 Chevroner]

Actually, he did mention hunting Deer but I'm not sure if it was in the same context as game.
I have asked questions on here a lot of times and have gotten more questions than answers, all because I didn't give enough information to begin with. That being said I have also gotten answers that didn't even pertain to the question I asked, because the respondent did not read the entire thread. Now, that being said, I have only shot one deer with a cast bullet. The boolit was a RCBS 180 Silhouette RFN, out of a 30-30 Mod. 94 Win. "Rifle" 25" barrel. The first shot was through the bottom of both lungs missed the heart because he stepped forward one step. He walked about 15 yards and stopped. The next shot was through the upper back taking out a section of the spine, both shots were boolit sized holes in and quarter sized out, my shots were at 80 and 85 yards. My thoughts are that flat nosed boolits will do a great job on Game. I'm with a number of you on here, I'm not a fan of hollow points.

[Bigbore5]

In the thick brush and woods I usually hunt, one needs to get a deer on the ground quickly or risk losing it. I've shot several with solids, both swc and wfn style. The larger meplat of the wfn is the quickest killer placed through the heart and lungs of the two.
SWC designs I use in 357 are the RCBS 38-150KT, 358429 from mp molds, and the 158gr Arsenal. WFN types are the lbt 180gr, mp 360-180fn,and the mp 360-640. All loaded for the highest velocity that remains accurate.
Consistently i get much quicker kills from the hp version of the mp mold bullets with the 360-180 cast 60-40 coww/soww +1% tin, powder coated, on a heavy charge of h110 being the most effective with it's very wide meplat and the large penta hp. I have never recovered one of these bullets from a deer and exit wounds are huge.
The 360-640 and the 358429 are both very effective as well, cast and coated the same except for using the large round pin. The 640 design gives the best accuracy in all my guns.

[1hole]

I don't think megasupermagnum "missed the OP's point"....and neither did I [not that you mentioned me but I agree with megasupermagnum regarding his last post....most do not read the OPs actual question....]

The complete context of J.D.R. (the OP) first post and I do not see where he stated anything further;

"Swc versus lead hollow point

I would like to hunt deer this fall and want to know the effectiveness of either projectile for harvesting game."

There is no mention of "deer" but only "game". There is no mention of "handguns". There is no mention of "357 and 44 mag". Actually there is not even any mention by the OP that the "SWC" and "lead hollow Point" referred to as "projectile" were even cast bullets.

Lots of "wiggle room" in the OP's actual question for all sorts of assumption.........yours also but that does not make your assumptions correct and megasupermagnum's wrong. We are all entitled to our opinions on the matter.

Ahhh ... a quick look back confirms that JDR specified both "deer" and "game" (if that matters) in post #1, he specified the handgun calibers he plans to use in his post #12. Burntfinger then brought up irrelevant shotgun slugs in his post #17.

So ... I'm ready to learn, where did I get it wrong?

[Larry Gibson]

The OP's question was ;
"want to know the effectiveness of either projectile for harvesting game."

My post was in response to megasupermagnum's statements that individuals most often do not answer the OP's question(s). The discussion of shotgun slugs further confirms that. Thanks for pointing out the OPs additional clarifying post (#12), I did miss that but it does not change the fact the answers strayed from the OPs original questions.

You didn't "go wrong" until until you missed the point of the OPs original question in the 1st post. He did not "sorta automatically excludes essays on jacketed flat OR hollow points in sabows (for black powder rifles), or rifled slugs for shotguns and, now, any jellied deer guts from high velocity thin jacketed varmint bullets" but actually left the door open for all of those. Keep in mind many, if not most, make posts based on assumptions made by reading just the title of a thread or the 1st post without reading the in between posts which may or may not add clarification. It is the nature of such with topics/threads on most all forums.

Whether we agree or not is not going to change that and I do agree with you, "no matter, forget it".

[Screwbolts]

/\ /\ /\, I totally and completely agree with all of what Larry has written.

[GLynn41]

if you live in Tn you must use an expanding bullet to hunt big game with-- so plain WLN or WFN are out for me- so I very much turn to hp =-- cup points or soft points

[kingrj]

Just to share some data points...As a handgun hunter I have killed over three dozen whitetails with various handguns. Some with hollowpoint jacketed bullets and some with hard cast SWC's...My observation is that as long as the bore diameter is big (.44-.45) the hard cast SWC bullets kill as effectively as the JHP bullets. One plus for the hard cast SWC is penetration....I have recovered almost all the JHP bullets I have killed deer with but I have recovered only one hard cast SWC...I primarily hunt now with .45 Super and 255 grain hard cast SWC...

[Bigbore5]

SWC-HP MP358429 is my go to for deer

[Screwbolts]

if you live in Tn you must use an expanding bullet to hunt big game with-- so plain WLN or WFN are out for me- so I very much turn to hp =-- cup points or soft points

It is very interesting (Laughable) that living in TN would some how distinguished WLN and WFN cast boolitz as NON expanding LOL

For the OP, I have no use for any HP cast boolitz so I would take the SWC every time of the 2 choices your ask opinions about.

[Larry Gibson]

I didn't think the OPs question was what we "preferred", what we use or what we liked.......

I though he asked about the 'effectiveness of both.....

I would like to hunt deer this fall and want to know the effectiveness of either projectile for harvesting game.

Having used both SWC and HP cast bullets for a long time in several different cartridges I've found they both will certainly kill game. There is no doubt about that and we can all agree. The second thing is to agree about using the correct bullet of either kind cast of an appropriate alloy. Using that simple criteria I was able to observe, as a Deputy Sheriff, the effectiveness of each out of different cartridges putting down numerous injured game [deer and elk] along with domestic stock from goats to cattle. I was able to pretty much pick the shot and observe the reaction and time to death. I found a properly cast (alloy) with a proper HP out of the 357, 41 magnums and standard calibers invariable killed the animal quicker than a similar SWC (soft or hard cast).

I've also observed the same in the field hunting game. Using properly cast and HP'd SWC or WFN that expands properly usually kills quic ker, that is important to me. If it doesn't expand i still have the same benefit of a standard SWC or HP.

A properly HP'd SWC or WFN will give all the penetration needed in game animals with a proper bullet placement. They do not "blow up" either.

[35 Whelen]

I've used SWC's, SWCHP's and WFNHP's. (L-R) .358" 162 gr. @ 1700 fps, sow, 40 yds.; .430" 243 gr. @ 1105 fps, buck, 38 yds.; .453" 265 gr. @ 1040 fps, buck 48 yds.



The sow ran 25-30 yds., the two bucks never took a step.

I've also killed a handful of similar game with SWC's, but I only recovered one bullet. This is a .430" 255-ish gr. which impacted at around 1050 fps when it struck a buck behind the last rib as he quartered away. It travelled I'd say a couple of feet stopping in the juncture of the neck and shoulder on the off side, obviously striking a bone somewhere along the way. Had it been a HP, I doubt it would've travelled near that far.



These are the lungs from a buck I shot two seasons ago with a SA 45 Colt. The bullet was a 288 gr. SWC with a MV just under 1000 fps. He was 41 yds. out and ran not even 25 yds. I was impressed by the damage, specifically the bloodshot tissue around the hole-



In my limited experience, HP's definitely kill faster, but penetration is reduced. I prefer a solid, but if all I had were HP's, I be happy and choose my shots carefully.

35W