I'm guessing not? I placed the 1873 Winchester I picked up a few months back on one of my group buys on GB. Figured it would cost an arm and a leg to restore and the receiver was cut out for a rear peep so imo I could never make it perfect. I decided to part with it and use the funds for another project. So with it being black powder and old can I ship it with out needing FFL paperwork from who ever ends up buying it?
If yours was made before 1898 an ffl is not necessary ( if I savvy the law correctly).
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2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
You don't need an FFL to ship to an FFL for a sale, no matter when it was made. If it was made pre-1899 then you don't have to even ship to an FFL, you can ship directly to the buyer bypassing the 4473 form.
Not exactly. There are states such as New Jersey where that would be illegal. Check the regs where you may be shipping it to. Good luck. I copied the following from a muzzle loader site (plus I lived there for 57 years):Originally Posted by Beaver Scout
Which states will you ship to?
We ship directly to customer's doors throughout the United States, except for customers in New Jersey, Illinois, Washington D.C. & New York City, as well as all pistol orders within New York State and Massachusetts. In these jurisdictions, the law requires muzzleloaders to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer, which we are happy to help arrange for your convenience. As a disclaimer, please check your local ordinances and statutes to ensure compliance with all laws.
It gets tricky in the Communist States - I live in MA and a few years ago I bought a cap and ball revolver on GB. After the sale, after I paid, the seller would only ship the gun to an FFL. There was no reasoning with the moron, despite the fact that he didn't list the FFL requirement in the original ad. Instead of dealing with GB, and since the seller had my money, I gave them my FFL info. The FFL even called them and said it wasn't necessary but it didn't matter. So, it cost me an extra $25.00.
I buy alot of antique guns in Maine. If the rifle (or handgun) uses self contained cartridges, they'll do a background check, even on antiques. Their store, their rules.
In the antique gun definition, it states "...any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Interpreting that ammo definition also makes it tricky,
Check your state laws. I know some states require shipping go through FFLs. In general Guns made before 1899 are exempt from registration. Don’t take online experts advice, look it up.
Totally unnecessary - Simply state in your ad:
"Buyer should ascertain that they can receive this gun per their state's regulations prior to offering to purchase/possess"
It is incumbent upon the BUYER, and not the seller, to ascertain if they can buy/possess whatever.
.
Now I lay me down to sleep
A gun beside me is what I keep
If I awake, and you're inside
The coroner's van is your next ride
Exactly. I have shipped guns to FFL holders in California that I knew weren't on the DOJ list approved for use in California.
The buyer contact me a couple months later wanting to return the firearm because they couldn't get approval.
I accepted it back minus a 20% hassle fee.
Know YOUR gun laws. Don't worry about other peoples.
If the item is legal in your state (not including POT), then its not your problem if the receiver can't possess it on their end.
Don't like being hammered by the Cast Boolits Staff, then don't be a nail.
The rules are simple to follow.
If that's the case, then why won't some of the Big Boys ship guns, components, ammo, etc to some states?
Wow. So warning him of a potential issue is totally unnecessary? Who is going to pay his legal fees if he ships a gun to a restricted state? The buyer? You? Sorry, I would rather know up front what my potential liabilities are, which is probably why he asked the question in the first place.
They have a FFl
They are a business.
I am a individual. I only need to know the laws that effect me. Not the laws that effect you.
There is NO postal restriction that says I can’t mail a AK47 to California.
There is however a restriction from you possessing that item once it arrives.
FFL holders in this case hold the weapon until it is compliant with state/local regulations. Which means they may make modifications to the weapon.
Don't like being hammered by the Cast Boolits Staff, then don't be a nail.
The rules are simple to follow.
The AG in my state has warned retailers not to ship to MA, even components. Many of them backed down. Why? What can they be afraid of? If it's legal to ship to MA, how can a lowly state AG go after them, and put fear in them? The AG could just as easily go after an individual who is not an FFL, but there's no optics in that.
With all due respect, it's about being responsible....
The responsibility of a seller is to truthfully describe the item they have for sale, and to tranhsfer the item properly, following US Federal Laws regarding the transfer of the item.
There is no liability attached to the seller's side of the transfer.
The responsibility of a buyer is to promptly pay the seller for the item bought, period.
Any liability for the transfer falls upon the buyer if the transfer is unlawful at their end of the transfer.
If a buyer misrepresents the legality of their possession of said item, whether deliberately or in ignorance of the law, the onus for everything that happens after the transfer of the goods are on that buyer.
IMO (YMMV), in the case of fraudulent possession by a buyer, the seller need do nothing ( a deal is a deal- too bad, so sad).
.
Now I lay me down to sleep
A gun beside me is what I keep
If I awake, and you're inside
The coroner's van is your next ride
Ignorance of the law is not a viable legal defense. Same for violating a state law by sending a prohibited item to that state when you are outside of that states border. For an individual the chances are low that the state will issue a warranty and or try to extradite the seller that is out of state unless it is a high profile case. Example if you send a hi cap mag to Cali. (before the current ruling) and it is used in a mass shooting they will come after you. With low profile cases you may have a warrant issued against you.
For a business continued violations of the states laws will result in the business loosing it ability to do business in that state.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
They were made until the 1920's Some by law are modern firearms. Ship one of those made after 1898 or so and it will be a federal felony if it is not to an FFL of course it is considered a C&R and may ship to a holder of a C&R FFL because it is an FFL.
Be safe and date it by serial # then ship accordingly.
Many FFL's want to do a 4473/Nics on ANY cartridge firearm regardless of caliber or age.
It's a CYA thing with them and it's their lic, their store, their rules as already said.
Some states don't follow the Fed definition of 'Antique' firearm, some do for a long gun but not for a hand gun (NYS). Some don't recognize C&R status.
Lots of State and Metro laws to deal with that upstage the Fed regs on Antique arms and their disposition, possession, ect.
The caliber thing (a cartridge arm being in a caliber not commercially available, ect....) is part of the NFA definition of Antique Firearm (different from Title 1 firearms,,regular rifles, shotguns and handguns).
Where the cartridge thing does come into play in the Fed reg in Title 1 firearms is in the definition of an Antique Status 'Reproduction' firearm.
IF the Modern mfg Repro of an Antique firearm (take a Henry Rifle for example) was made in the orig .44rf caliber, it would be considered an Antique Status (by Fed Regulation) Firearm.
That is as long as no one started mfr'g 44rf Henry ammunition. (Maybe they have,,I don't know.)
Those Henry rifle Repros in 44-40 or 45Colt can't get Antique status as they ARE chambered for a cart currently produced and available in normal trade.
An orig Henry is pre 1898. It is an Antique (Fed status) because of it's mfg'rd date. What caliber it now is or if ammo is now available or not means nothing.
A Parker 12ga SxS made in 1896 is an Antique Status firearm. Doesn't matter that it chambers and fires OTC 12ga ammo from Walmart.
If it left the factory as a 24ga (yes they made a few) and some one rebbl'd it to 20ga,,it's still an Antique Status firearm because of the Mfg date.
(C&R status firearms must keep their orig configuration and not be altered/customized or they lose that C&R status.
They still remain Title 1 firearms however and transfer on a 4473/NICS.)
The Win 73 would be judged Antique,, or not strictly by it's mfg'r date.
But then State and Metro laws would have to be abided by as well. These may make the Fed Antique Status completely irrelevant when transfering the gun.
Back to 'Every cartridge gun gets transfered on a 4473/NICS check by the FFL'.
Triple beards … give your gunsmith the details and talk to him. Rely on Internet talk, there are too many variables
Regards
John
Looks like mine was produced in 1894. The first three of the serial number start with 446. So it does not need an FFL to transfer. Here is the link to my ad with the serial number…
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/904148662
Would have loved to restore it but the receiver has been notched out for a peep which imo I would never get it filled in properly. Probably the the only 1873 I’ll ever own. Between the receiver and the cost of replacement parts I figured I’d move it and invest into another project. Looks like I already have a bid with 5 days left. I’ll be curious how much it brings. I picked it up on a group buy so I basically have nothing into it.
Last edited by Tripplebeards; 06-29-2021 at 05:38 AM.
That clause does not mention reproduction firearms. We can all say that it means nothing, but the fact is, that definition exists, which means, push comes to shove, it could be used. How would a jury interpret that definition?and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
I ran into a problem with that definition twice when dealing with salespeople (2 different salespeople) selling an antique firearm. OK, call them stupid, or incompetent, or whatever, but the jury pool is made up of such people.
I'm not saying that an 1873 Winchester made prior to 1898 is not an antique, even if the ammo used is "currently manufactured and available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade", but...
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