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Thread: building collapse

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    I feel for those people. Most likely the safest a person will ever feel is at home in their own bed, maybe cuddling with their spouse. Then wam, if they were not killed instantly they had time to be scared enough to die from fright.
    East Tennessee

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    I have always hated the idea of living in a "flat",or apartment in a high rise......When I was a kid,my old man used to rant about the evils of communism.....one evil was people had to live in high rise concrete boxes......As to the idea of paying more for a "flat" than a house with a yard ,thats crazy in my opinion.........And everyone who owns a "flat " says the same thing......many residents wont or cant pay a share of maintenance costs ,and the buildings just detiorate until government inspectors issue repair orders.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    Guess you guys missed this: Resident, on 3rd Floor, calls husband to report, "The pool just caved in!"

    Like a dam breaking, water erodes sandy soil. A lot of water erodes - fast. Structures (already weak) collapse. It's a Domino effect.

    The Planning (Developers) and Design firms (Engineer and Architect), and their principals are currently being publicly excoriated, shamed, and practically accused. THAT IS STUPID AND WRONG THINKING.

    MARK MY WORDS: it will be shown in the forensic evidence that PLANNING and DESIGN were not at fault.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Owner View Post
    Guess you guys missed this: Resident, on 3rd Floor, calls husband to report, "The pool just caved in!"

    Like a dam breaking, water erodes sandy soil. A lot of water erodes - fast. Structures (already weak) collapse. It's a Domino effect.

    The Planning (Developers) and Design firms (Engineer and Architect), and their principals are currently being publicly excoriated, shamed, and practically accused. THAT IS STUPID AND WRONG THINKING.

    MARK MY WORDS: it will be shown in the forensic evidence that PLANNING and DESIGN were not at fault.
    Concurr with the above. We are seeing a "Rush to Judgement" with few facts yet determined; and an attempt by politicians to step in and create a scenario where they can implement new laws and controls to establish greater power and be seen as the "Savior of the Populace"; in both parties.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  5. #45
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    Did you hear Biden stating it was probably caused by climate change? Claimed he is not saying it but was told that. Jeez.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWolf View Post
    Did you hear Biden stating it was probably caused by climate change? Claimed he is not saying it but was told that. Jeez.
    Have seen several places where the Greenies/Climatic Sky is Falling Crowd/Progressives are floating a ballon that it was climate change that caused it. Theory goes that the lack of rainfall (huh - thought ever increasing Hurricanes was the problem in Florida due to climate change) in Florida has resulted in lower water tables because population is drawing too much water - resulting in less support for the underground sand strata - resulting in sink holes forming. The "SKY IS FALLING" crowd can spin any condition to where they need to be in charge and Save US from Ourselves.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    aw yeah right !!!
    not enough ground water and they on a sandy beach front.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTANG View Post
    ...an attempt by politicians to step in and create a scenario where they can implement new laws and controls to establish greater power and be seen as the "Savior of the Populace"; in both parties.
    The Politicians will probably push HARD to bring back the "eye for an eye" Code of Hammurabi, during whose reign (1792-1750 BC), if a building fell and killed the first born son of the occupant, then the first born son of the building's erector (Architect) would be put to death. Seems Fair and Reasonable...until considering, in the case of this building, 159 of the still living 1981 construction workers would be put to death.

    Though, today, some of that Code starts to sound pretty good:

    If a man accuses another man and charges him with homicide, but cannot bring proof against him, his accuser shall be killed (this would be good in precluding aggressive Prosecutors).

    If a man breaks into a house, they shall kill him and hang him in front of that very breach.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  9. #49
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    One very large sandbar, and the developers were given "Carte Blanche" to do as they please. Building/construction inspectors do have political and monetary constraints! Orlando car dealership and others can attest to the instability of Florida's geology!
    Mountains do fall, so why not man made legos?
    West of Beaver Dick's Ferry.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by trebor44 View Post
    ...the developers were given "Carte Blanche" to do as they please.
    That is painting with a very broad brush. Do you know that for fact or is that an opinion?

    Planning and Permitting are stages of development that are ripe for shortcutting. Getting "some one else's money" on loan and into the ground as new construction, turning a profit, is what Developers must do or go broke. Streamlining permitting is always the practice. Whether political money changed hands, back office deals were struck, or irregularities were overlooked - in construction - I cannot say.

    Undercutting of the foundation when the pool "let go" is certainly prima facia evidence as is the 2018 Structural Inspection Report of concrete cracks, rebar corrosion, $15M in pending "maintenance", an HOA Board with recommendations on the table for three (3) YEARS, and a (seemingly) resistant resident population procrastinating in their hive mind responsibility for building upkeep and remediation. There may have been a window of opportunity to correct this before the collapse.

    It is hard to "sell", and does not bode well, that these victims are in part responsible for their own demise. Who was responsible for telling the residents that they were in grave danger? IDK. I suspect that the engineering profession does not know that answer.

    I think it unsettling to state, as the possibilities are limitless, that ALL LIFE is in grave danger (of some form) every minute of every day.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Read somewhere that the pool had caved in first,Then the building followed ?

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    See link #43 above. I had thought the pool itself "let go" from the linked account, but now that does not seem to be the case. Hundreds (and maybe thousands) of square feet of concrete spalled from the underside of the pool deck into the parking garage below damaging fire sprinkler pipes.

    A former 10-year (1995 to 2005, iirc) South Tower maintenance man was interviewed. His experience there was every "King Tide", routine, periodic, and higher than normal ocean high tide, SALT WATER would inundate the below ground parking garage with 1 to 2 FEET of sea water (how residence parked there - idk). Garage waterproofing in the South Tower had apparently failed. Sumps with large pumps could not keep up, he said in the interview. Pumps were routinely replaced.

    Anyone that understands drainage also understands the "pumping action" of water as it raises and falls. Soil fines and organics are the first particles to "wash away".
    As micro-cavities in the soil are formed, larger, bridged, particles of sand "collapse" into these micro-cavities, eventually forming larger holes.

    Some were saying the oceanside buildings were settling. How the salt water reacted with the "double matt" spread footings (I thought I heard) of steel reinforcing bars and concrete is to be determined in the forensic analysis.

    Many "theories" and quite a few very good, in depth, seemingly qualified (professional building inspector type) analysts showing up on YouTube with marked building plans, videos of the collapse with differing building perspectives from minutes prior, and indicative "before and after" photos showing where the collapse started (pool deck).

    Everyone is still "guessing" with regard to the root cause, but where the collapse started (pool deck onto parking garage below buckling key columns) and how it migrated into taking down two thirds of the building (debris damage buckling more key columns) is becoming quite clear.
    Last edited by Land Owner; 07-04-2021 at 04:00 AM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master



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    Land Owner - Thanks for the additional info on there being a "Parking Garage" under the pool. My initial thoughts on the Pool Collapse report were it was a Natural event; a sink hole. The info on Sea Water Infiltration over years coupled with the Pool collapsing into the garage below shifts my thoughts from Natural Florida Sink Holes to man made catastrophe due to building in a bad location coupled with bad maintenance practices.

    It seems based on some TV News that the HOA board was continually deferring corrective maintenance based on "Owner Reluctance" to pay for it. This smells much like the US Highway and Bridge maintenance at municipalities, States, and Federal levels where those Politico's overseeing Maintenance budgets divert the taxes collected for maintaining Roads and Bridges and spend it elsewhere; then claim crisis years later when an accident or grave damage is avoided and demand special or greater taxation to deal with the "Collapsing Infrastructure" (sounds like reports on the Federal budget the last 3 months).
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy
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    FYI and something to speculate on: https://sealevelrise.org/states/flor...SAAEgJRVPD_BwE
    West of Beaver Dick's Ferry.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    Above link contains the catch all phrase towards the bottom of build back stronger sound familiar ?

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    MSN,had videos when the building undergoing a controlled demolition this evening. Soon as they can rescue workers will be back on the scene to continue the search. Frank

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Saw it go down.
    I'm guessing they gave up hope of finding anyone alive, or they wouldn't have brought down the other building.
    Saw in the paper that an "expert" is saying poor construction is the cause.
    Guess the blame game is starting.

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy
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    Terrible Tragedy, my Hearth goes out to anybody whom has lost a loved one.

    Building collapsing like that in the USA or Canada, unthinkable.

    What made it worse for me was watching Video of the "Snail pace recovery" Operation.

    Be safe !

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master
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    It looks like they are pointing the blame away from them, and at the construction.
    If gooberment had done their job inspecting all these year, wouldn't they have noticed something????
    If it was just a sink hole, nothing anyone could have done about it.
    waikiki is on the same kind of foundation.
    Wonder how long before some of those buildings come tumbling down.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by abunaitoo View Post
    It looks like they are pointing the blame away from them, and at the construction.
    If gooberment had done their job inspecting all these year, wouldn't they have noticed something????
    If it was just a sink hole, nothing anyone could have done about it.
    waikiki is on the same kind of foundation.
    Wonder how long before some of those buildings come tumbling down.
    I don't think Waikiki is similar. Continental shelf (sand and sandstone for miles down) and volcanic island is very different. Florida is also undercut by waterways throughout - which adds another level of difference.
    Wayne the Shrink

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