Minimum trigger weight for self defense?

[Idaho45guy]

Ordered a new trigger assembly for my Glock that is supposed to give it 1911 level crispness with around 3 lbs of pull weight. Hoping to try a combo of other components that raises that to 4 lbs.

I have a S&W M&P40c with a 4 lb weight using an Apex sear and it is wonderful. Of course, I also have a safety on it.

Most of my other carry guns have weights of around 5 lbs, which isn't bad. I can still get good groups with 5 lbs if it is crisp with a consistent wall.

Curious as to what others consider adequate pull weight for carrying concealed.

[243winxb]

4.5 to 5 lbs . A Taurus G3C was tested by the NRA. Came in at 4lbs 10 oz. Perfect for a striker fired 9mm pistol. Mine shoots ok with home cast. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...tc.317/&page=3

[Bigslug]

There is case law on the books in Texas where a community paid out some huge sum to a guy that was accidentally plugged by an officer running a factory "minus" connector in his duty Glock that got it below the standard 5.5 pounds. Usually this equates to about 4.5#, but can be less if one starts buffing things.

The National Institute of Justice standard for a striker fired gun is 5# or more. Some of the other systems allow for lighter. . .BUT. . .

My general take is that:

1. The primary desirable quality of a defensive firearm is that it WORK. I've seen failures to reset on revolvers due to clipped rebound springs; I've seen failures to fire due to lightened mainsprings; I've seen 1911's double or fall to half-cock due to tweaked sear springs or sear engagement surfaces. A proper combat gun should ALWAYS go off when you want it to, and NEVER go off when you don't, even when buttstroking or bayoneting someone to death with it, and your frozen fingers should be able to feel that they are on the trigger before they trip it.

2. If you need a lightened trigger to hit defense-realistic sized targets at defense-realistic distances, your technique is probably based on slapping the trigger the instant you think the sight picture is going to somehow magically freeze over the exact, infinitesimally small geometric center of the target. Learn to maintain alignment while pressing the trigger in a way that does not disturb that alignment, and you will achieve enlightenment (TIP - time spent running a DA revolver really hammers this lesson home)

Do a search for "Las Vegas PD Negligent Discharge". Pistol in question is a Beretta 92 or 96 that starts the video with the hammer down in the DA first shot mode. Even the ten pound pull didn't prevent the "BANG!" Adrenaline is a crazy substance. If you need to "skin that smokewagon and go to work", rest assured you will not be in a chill, Bullseye match frame of mind.

As long as it's CLEAN, heavy doesn't bother me - at least not until you get up into the 18# range that a lot of PPK's operate in for their first DA round. . .

[DougGuy]

WHY would you want to change a defensive carry gun? That just presents the prosecution yet another "Easter Egg" they will use against you. It's STUPID to libel yourself to this.

I guarantee that if you ever do have to draw and fire in a REAL LIFE defense situation, the difference in the trigger pull will be the LAST thing you think about!

Edit: My edc is a Kahr CW45 which ships with a buttery smooth DA every time trigger. In rapid fire I have no problem controlling the groups and keeping them within a reasonable strike zone at 20 yards. I have never bothered with how much trigger pull weight it takes to fire the gun as it's never been even a question I would need to address.

If the factory trigger sucks so badly that you can't keep the group within a reasonable strike zone at self defense distances, you need a new edc or some better training or both.

[MrWolf]

I am not aware of any case of a non-factory trigger being used against someone in court. I am not an attorney. That being said, my concealed carry insurance did have a blurb about using factory triggers. I did the Apex trigger on my M&P 45c and that was always in the back of my mind. Gave me a good reason to try and love my Sig P229in 357 sig which has become my go to carry. I am getting the compact 357 sig also and should have all my bases covered from warm to cold weather.

[Bigslug]

I am not aware of any case of a non-factory trigger being used against someone in court.

Here ya go: https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...-hair-trigger/

Ayoob's done a more detailed article on the Santibantes/Tomball case: https://americanhandgunner.com/the-a...anes-incident/

In line with my first post, the gun must work first and foremost and fire control mods start messing with the core of what makes the gun run.

The lawyers will chew from any angle they can. Ayoob's articles show that they will chew on you for modifying your gun, but the customer will be hiring more lawyers to chew on the manufacturers if that gun lets them down. Smith, Colt, Ruger, Glock, etc... make their guns the way they do for a reason. Put simply, it's a parachute. A parachute HAS to open. Replacing your double-stitched cordura nylon rip cord handle with a lace doily because it better reflects your personal identity choices is not smart. Neither is taking the core operating guts of your firearm out of factory spec.

[tazman]

I have damage to my trigger finger from an old injury plus arthritis. It makes pulling a heavy trigger painful and sometimes nearly impossible.
In order for me to properly control a handgun, I need a trigger in the 3.5-4.5 range, preferably on the lighter side.
I work with double action revolvers as much as I can stand, in order to strengthen my fingers. Other than switching to shooting with my off hand, there is not much I can do about it.
I practice with my off hand in case of need but I doubt I will ever have the aiming ability I have with my dominant hand.
Sometimes you just have to deal with what life gives you. If I am still alive to deal with the lawyers after a shooting confrontation, I will just have to do that and consider it a better outcome than losing my life.

[TNsailorman]

There is an old saying that is a bit trite but is true none the less; "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". james

[RJM52]

1911: 4#+-

Stock G19: 3.5# takeup with a 5# 3 oz. break

S&W DA revolver: Change out the rebound spring for a 13#..mainspring stays stock. Never a problem with ignition or trigger return

Have three Kahrs in 9mm and .380 that are all stock as is the S&W 6906 I carried for years...nothing needed...

[country gent]

For me weight isnt the real issue in a trigger but I do want smooth crisp and consistent brake point with it. At defensive ranges good effective groups can be shot with the heavy trigger. Groups do open up when the there is roughness and it breaks different each time.

Learn to shot the heavy trigger Practice practice practice. Here even dry fire will be a big help.

[square butte]

This is interesting - I have a Kimber micro nine with a trigger pull that comes in at about 11 lbs. Have been looking for someone to have a go at the trigger because I did not want to send it back to Kimber. I just can't shoot it well at that weight. I've been considering 5 to 6 pounds. I had not considered the liability issues of a trigger job on a defensive piece. I think I might want to have a gunsmith document the original weight and the corrected pull weight. Just a thought off the top of my head

[lawdog941]

For a self defense weapon, leave it stock. If used, it will be confiscated and detail examined. Any discrepancies from stock will be noted. Now you could have a "worn" sear or other stock part that would lighten trigger pull. As Tazman has a disadvantage, you could then lighten it up and more than likely it would be accepted. I'm not an Attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I shot thousands of rounds under the timer at matches with 3 lb. pulls. I think for an experienced shooter using a striker fired pistol 3 lbs. would be fine. I would probably just go with stock set up on those pistols though. Not sure I would go with a single action at all for self defense.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

1911: 4#+-

Stock G19: 3.5# takeup with a 5# 3 oz. break

S&W DA revolver: Change out the rebound spring for a 13#..mainspring stays stock. Never a problem with ignition or trigger return

Have three Kahrs in 9mm and .380 that are all stock as is the S&W 6906 I carried for years...nothing needed...

I too leave my revolver mainsprings stock. The rebound spring does improve things nicely.

[downzero]

I think this issue has had way more airplay than it's worth, the fire fed my Masaad Ayoob, who gets paid huge money to testify as an expert in the few close self defense cases where issues like that make it into court.

If you're really concerned about this, you should be FAR more concerned about living somewhere where your DA/State's Attorney/Commonwealth Attorney/elected Prosecutor has serious respect for self defense and handles these cases fairly when unfortunate, but otherwise decent people end up in a bad situation. Self defense cases should never be charged, so there should not even be a hearing where this could ever come up. If you live in a jurisdiction where your prosecutors are hostile to self defense, it's not going to matter how reasonably you acted or what tool you used, you may find yourself in jail, in court, and maybe in prison if the jury gets it wrong.

I generally carry factory guns on the street myself but it is mostly because of wanting the utmost of reliability.

Also, even superhuman people aren't winning any state/area/national USPSA match with 8 pound triggers. And even if they were, the people who are winning them could outshoot you even with your own gun. And you ain't beating them even with a fancy custom blaster. Such arguments teach nothing.

I once searched the two main databases to the ends of the earth to find cases where the trigger weight or handloaded ammunition were ever turned into an issue in a case, and I was unable to find any such reported case. It doesn't mean there aren't any, but I searched pretty far. This issue is way more common on the internet than it is in an actual courtroom.

[MrWolf]

Here ya go: https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...-hair-trigger/

Ayoob's done a more detailed article on the Santibantes/Tomball case: https://americanhandgunner.com/the-a...anes-incident/

In line with my first post, the gun must work first and foremost and fire control mods start messing with the core of what makes the gun run.

The lawyers will chew from any angle they can. Ayoob's articles show that they will chew on you for modifying your gun, but the customer will be hiring more lawyers to chew on the manufacturers if that gun lets them down. Smith, Colt, Ruger, Glock, etc... make their guns the way they do for a reason. Put simply, it's a parachute. A parachute HAS to open. Replacing your double-stitched cordura nylon rip cord handle with a lace doily because it better reflects your personal identity choices is not smart. Neither is taking the core operating guts of your firearm out of factory spec.

Thanks for the info. I figured why chance it and ended up get a Sig which I may have never tried to my detriment.

[Idaho45guy]

For a self defense weapon, leave it stock. If used, it will be confiscated and detail examined. Any discrepancies from stock will be noted. Now you could have a "worn" sear or other stock part that would lighten trigger pull. As Tazman has a disadvantage, you could then lighten it up and more than likely it would be accepted. I'm not an Attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

So you're saying that if you use a firearm in self-defense, no matter the circumstances or jurisdiction, that the police will confiscate your firearm, and then run a bunch of tests, including a trigger pull gauge, to make sure the gun was not modified in any way?

Have you ever been a cop, or known a cop?

Curious as to where you are getting this impression.

[Catshooter]

So you're saying that if you use a firearm in self-defense, no matter the circumstances or jurisdiction, that the police will confiscate your firearm, and then run a bunch of tests, including a trigger pull gauge, to make sure the gun was not modified in any way?

Have you ever been a cop, or known a cop?

Curious as to where you are getting this impression.

You make an excellent point. Chicago? God save you in that hellhole. Where I live at the corner of No & Where? My cop (we only have one) would either criticize or praise my marksmanship, depending. And hand me my gun back.

Not everyone lives in the big anti-gun city.


Cat

[lawdog941]

So you're saying that if you use a firearm in self-defense, no matter the circumstances or jurisdiction, that the police will confiscate your firearm, and then run a bunch of tests, including a trigger pull gauge, to make sure the gun was not modified in any way?

Have you ever been a cop, or known a cop?

Curious as to where you are getting this impression.

Still a street cop for over 20 years. I always play devils advocate. So I am aware of both sides of possibilities. In Ohio, if anyone is injured or dies as a result of a firearm, and it is found on scene, it will be seized. While it is in the property room, it is subject to testing by the Detectives handling the case, or the Prosecutor getting it inspected or tested. What kind of testing/inspection is up to the Prosecutor. It all mostly depends on the Prosecutor and their stance on self defense. That is where I'm coming from, in your area, things may be totally different with Laws and Investigations. I would not chance it, but that is a personal choice. Sorry if you misunderstood my statement.

[Thumbcocker]

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