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Thread: Wasn't sure where to ask a noob question

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold kelli's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure where to ask a noob question

    I didn’t know where to ask a noob question on the board about reloading, and since it doesn’t involve cast bullets I wasn’t sure it would be allowed. I'm hoping this inquiry is OK and posted somewhere I won't get into any trouble.

    I bought these primed brass on GB. The ad said they were trimmed to 1.755, but the ones I’ve measured are all shorter than that, usually 1.74. Any info I’ve been able to find says 1.74 is ok, just don’t go over 1.76 case length. No idea what primers are in them.

    So I’m loading Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 55gr .224 for .223/5.56 for an AR with a 16” barrel, 1/9 twist, carbine length gas system. 24gr H335.

    https://www.lehighdefense.com/lehigh...d-data-library

    Here’s the thing, Lehigh’s loading table says load to COL 2.245, and I’m at 2.25 to get on the ridge, and they still look like they’re not seated deep enough. I did put a crimp on them. I could make them 2.220 like I do with the Hornady 55gr SP, but these are longer bullets which is why I assumed they recommended a longer COAL.

    Pic is here https://imgur.com/gallery/XtpcRPn I couldn’t figure out how to post it to the board, It said it uploaded, but I didn't see it in the gallery. Maybe it has to be approved before it will show up.

    I only loaded the 3 in the picture, and figured I'd stop until I found someone to ask. I wanted to shoot them and see if they were accurate, and if they cycled the gun and held the bolt open after the last round anyway, but since they look suspect I'm waiting to see what anyone says.

  2. #2
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    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
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    You're wise to be careful.
    I'd load them to the recommended COA, go easy on the crimp, and call it good.

    Being over charged, not fitting in the magazine, and jamming up in the rifling from being too long are the biggies that
    can ruin your day.

    You'll commonly see different COAs on the same page for different bullets in a loading book.
    It's to compensate for different nose shapes & lengths, but stay in the specs for what will safely chamber up
    and have the bearing surface properly space in relation to the rifling.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelli View Post
    Here’s the thing, Lehigh’s loading table says load to COL 2.245, and I’m at 2.25 to get on the ridge, and they still look like they’re not seated deep enough.
    I disagree.

    If you were to put a factory 5.56 55gn FMJBT round right next to them they look like they are seated the same or maybe even deeper.

    I'd skip the crimping step and just deflare (set crimp die to remove any flare from case mouth but not crimp it).

  4. #4
    Boolit Man QuackAttack24's Avatar
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    2.250 is listed as the max COAL for .223. Theoretically they should work if your chamber is within SAAMI specs, provided they will fit in your magazine, and none of them are longer than that. Here's the SAAMI specs for .223. Stay within minimum/maximum values and you should be ok. Click image for larger version. 

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    What could possibly go wrong?

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    if they load in a ar mag with out jaming ... there good

    to long of a oal and you will be single feeding them

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold kelli's Avatar
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    I was concerned that they looked like they were out too far, but they measure less than the 2.245 the bullet manufacturer says they should measure.

    At 2.225 they are not out of the SAAMI spec, and I guess they’d be ok to seat deeper to get the crimp on the groove better. I think they’re short because the cases are trimmed to 1.740 instead of 1.755.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    Usually people are most concerned with exceeding max overall length, that can cause a number of problems. Therefore, COL is normally thought to be a maximum length. In reality there is a minimum length specified too. A little bit of boolit jump shouldn’t make a big difference until you get to the point of really splitting hairs on accuracy.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    If they fit the mag, feed from the mag and they bullets aren't engaged in the rifling when chambered, I say you are good to go. Just seat a bullet in a sizer case and cover the bullet with a black sharpie marker and chamber it. You will see the rifling marks on it if it is too long. I would guess I almost always load longer that maximum lengths listed, to get the best accuracy.
    Take a kid to the range, you'll both be glad you did.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I seat mine .010 from the riffling to get best accuracy. Crimp with Lee factory crimp die. After trimming to minimal.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy Joe504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remy3424 View Post
    If they fit the mag, feed from the mag and they bullets aren't engaged in the rifling when chambered, I say you are good to go. Just seat a bullet in a sizer case and cover the bullet with a black sharpie marker and chamber it. You will see the rifling marks on it if it is too long. I would guess I almost always load longer that maximum lengths listed, to get the best accuracy.
    This is a great help in many loadings.
    What he is saying is load a dummy round with the bullet seated long, and crimped tight.

    Cover the bullet with a black sharpie, and chamber it tight.

    When removed, you should see where the rifeling is by the Mark's on the projectile.

    By measuring from the head to those Mark's, you will know how long is too long.

    Also, this group is amazing, you can ask anything gun related wherever it fits. You may get 5 different opinions on the best way to address the problem, but you will certainly get a response

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelli View Post
    I was concerned that they looked like they were out too far, but they measure less than the 2.245 the bullet manufacturer says they should measure.

    At 2.225 they are not out of the SAAMI spec, and I guess they’d be ok to seat deeper to get the crimp on the groove better. I think they’re short because the cases are trimmed to 1.740 instead of 1.755.
    Weeelll .... saying the maker says the OAL "should be" something isn't quite right; does the round feed and chamber reliably is the real issue and internal magazine length is a part of that. Book OAL is simply what the book authors used to do their tests.

    Bullet crimp grooves aren't ballistic magic, don't get wrapped up in that. OAL and bullet jump to the lands can/will affect accuracy quite a bit so playing around with jumps in 10-20 thou steps can prove helpful.

    A wise ol' man got me started reloading in 1965. He quickly taught me that nothing in a loading book is holy script from the mind of God. Every firearm is a law unto itself and books are just a starting place so each of us is responsible for our own safety.

    I've never even looked at a book OAL and I've never had any interesting events because I work up my loads according to my own results.

    WARNING: This is no place to tell anyone how to safely ramp up a book load but I can promise you that trying to guess excessive pressures by flat primers is dangerous; we can easily blow handguns and some rifles from together before primers flatten enough to matter.

  12. #12
    Boolit Man QuackAttack24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe504 View Post
    This is a great help in many loadings.
    What he is saying is load a dummy round with the bullet seated long, and crimped tight.

    Cover the bullet with a black sharpie, and chamber it tight.

    When removed, you should see where the rifeling is by the Mark's on the projectile.

    By measuring from the head to those Mark's, you will know how long is too long.

    Also, this group is amazing, you can ask anything gun related wherever it fits. You may get 5 different opinions on the best way to address the problem, but you will certainly get a response

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    In actuality this is the best way to load your bottle neck rifle rounds. This distance is called CBOL (Cartridge base to Ogive length). This is what I measure when seating my bullets. This is what tells you how close the ogive is to the lands. You can measure it with a sharpie or use something like this:
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012747079?pid=570611
    This is what I use. Then when seated you can measure the CBOL of your finished round with this:
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012754129?pid=709931 If you get one of these, you need the anvil as well.
    This is a much more accurate way of loading your rounds because each bullet is different, and the key distance is from the lands to the ogive, not the tip of the bullet.
    What could possibly go wrong?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    There are many methods of determining the cartridge OAL for firearms. Some require rather expensive tools, of which some are not presently in stock. This is for determining the max cartridge OAL for any bullet you are intending to load in your cartridge. It does require a caliper and a few inexpensive and easy to locate items.


    very old and reliable method for finding max cartridge OAL

    How to determine the cartridge OAL with a dowel or cleaning rod.

    Cleaning rod/dowel method of finding cartridge OAL

    This is what I use for my guns to determine the max OAL and this eliminates any question of the crimp, incorrect case prep, or other operator induced error.

    This method works well on rifles and single shot pistols as well as Semi-autos. You can use a flat tipped cleaning rod, or flat tipped dowel rod. You will also need a sharp pointed pencil, a short dowel and a bullet sized but clean, of the type you are going to load.

    For Rifles
    Make sure the chamber is empty. Close the bolt, and be sure the firing pin is retracted into the bolt. Insert the dowel or cleaning rod and hold it against the face of the bolt. Mark the rod at the face of the muzzle. Remove rod, open bolt and remove it from the action. Insert the bullet into the breech and hold it snug into the rifling. While in that position insert the dowel or rod again, and with it firm against the nose of the bullet, mark the rod at the face of the muzzle.

    The distance between the center of those two marks is the max cartridge OAL for that rifle, with that bullet sized to that diameter.

    For Semi-auto pistols
    Remove the barrel from the slide and make sure it is clean and free of leading or other debris in the barrel and chamber. The dowel or cleaning rod needs to be longer than the barrel. Hold the barrel, muzzle up, and place the barrel hood on a flat surface like a table top. Insert the dowel or rod from the muzzle and mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove the rod and insert the bullet you intend to use into the chamber and lightly press and hold it in place with the short dowel. Place the assy muzzle up on the flat surface. Insert the rod/dowel into the muzzle so it rests on the nose of the bullet and again mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove and set the barrel aside. The distance on the center of the two lines is the cartridge OAL. Seat a dummy round to this length, or slightly shorter and begin to apply the taper crimp until the dummy passes the plunk test. This is the optimum cartridge OAL length for this bullet in this gun. In order to adjust for the bullet to be seated off the lands, shorten the cartridge OAL by the necessary amount.

    You may need to adjust the seater to shorten the OAL if this does not feed from the magazine, but generally this will be a great fit. Remember, if you seat and crimp in one step, you might force a slight ridge ahead of the case mouth and that will screw up your seating.
    Dusty

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuackAttack24 View Post
    This distance is called CBOL (Cartridge base to Ogive length).
    Must be regional, I've always seen Cartridge Base To Ogive stated as CBTO.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    To seemingly answer your question, a 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.74" will be fine, as long as everything else is in order.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilC View Post
    Must be regional, I've always seen Cartridge Base To Ogive stated as CBTO.
    I've never heard it expressed either way.
    We may call the seating depth anything we like, there is no specified nomenclature.

    It often seems some people think the "ogive" is some specific point on the bullet; it is not. The ogive is the entire tapered forepart of the bullet, from full body diameter to meplat.

    OAL is as good a measurement as we need when seating anyway because the seating of any given bullet sets the ogive/bore contact depth to the head of a case as accurately as any other label we may choose to use.

    I've never found optimal seating depth to be transferable between bullets anyway. Seems each load is a law unto itself so we need to start fresh with anything we change, especially including bullets, so measure your seating to any point or by any term that floats your boat!

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold kelli's Avatar
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    WOW, thanks for all the great info in this thread. So far I have taken the advice I got to load some at 22.5, 23, and 23.5 (seated at 2.220-2.225). It's raining today, so I may get a chance to do the sharpie thing and the cleaning rod thing.

  18. #18
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    I measure like Dusty, but I have a washer that the rod/dowel barely fits through on the end of the barrel to make it easier to get a good line

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    There are three reloading stages for COAL to find that "sweet spot":
    1.) jambed into lands
    2.) touching the lands
    3.) jump to lands

    As 1hole and others allude, many of us improve accuracy in the jump to lands stage.

    SAAMI min and max COAL are to be respected, are established for assured and safe interchangeability of ammunition, and ymmv in your specific rifle or handgun.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub




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    my 2 cents!!!! assumption 1) your loading for an AR 15 platform . assumption 2) your doing target loads to get use to the platform and figure out what works. assumption 3 ) you've gotten LYMN'S #49 OR 50 AND READ IT OR THEM !!!
    .223 IS SIMILAR TO BUT NOT THE SAME AS THE 5.56 X45 MILITARY CARTRIDGE. HERE'S THE ONLY 2 DIFFERENCE'S I'VE FOUND IN THE LAST 45 YEARS ! The commercial .223 brass is lighter and has a larger interior capacity, and the military 5.56 X 45 brass has thicker case construction and less capacity inside the case . That being said , you can use either in an AR-15 platform. The military load's are usually loaded right up to max around 55/56 thousand cup pressure for the 3200-3300 fps velocity . about that time in the conversation the gunny might digress into hydrstatic shock conversation mode if a boot was sleeping ! look it up !!
    THE C.O.A.L. OR O.A.L. IS SET AT 2.260 MAX AS A LIMIT FOR THE MILITARY MAGAZINE FIT. You'll after a lot of practice wind up somewhere around 2.250 for 55 to 77 grain bullets. If you really get into bolt guns and the heavier bullets like the nosler A-MAX 75 GRS you get into the 1 at a time feed, because now yer up in the 2.300 COAL RANGE, but that's another whole discussion !
    My go to 55 grain load is 25 grains of CFE OR H335 which at a COAL OF 2.550 CYCLES FINE AND SPIT'S OUT AROUND 3050 FPS, AND WILL HOLD 1 1/2 MIN. AT 100 YDS ALL DAY LONG. done with 2 cents !!!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check