What am I missing? Lyman 358-311 & Lyman CBH 3rd edition - 38 spl

[bedbugbilly]

I have a number of projects going on this summer – one of which is getting loads developed for my Henry Big Boy .357 Steel Rifle and one which will also work in my Uberti 357 – idealy the same load. I’m going to be using both the Lee 358-125 and the 358-158 round nose flat poing in 357 brass.

But . . . today, I got to thinking about the many molds I have accumulated. One of my favorites in 38 Special is the Lyman/Ideal 358-311 – 158 grain round nose. I load it over 3.5 grains of Bulls Eye and it shoots great out of my S & W 5” M & P as well as the Bisley.

While my 357 Henry seems to prefer the Lee round nose flat point in a 357 casing as far as feeding over 38 Special, I got to thinking if perhaps the 358-311 might feed O.K. in 38 brass – so just for kicks, I loaded up a half a dozen dummy rounds to try. This is where I discovered something that maybe I’m not grasping something or just getting too old?

Keep these figures in mind. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (38 special) lists the trim length of the cartridge to be 1.149 (their recommendations). In their data list for the 3580311, they indicate that the COAL as 1.550.

First off – I’m not “high tech” nor a competition shooter and my 38 specials are primarily used for plinking. I have always used range brass with mixed headstamps and have NEVER trimmed a 38 Special. I normally cast with "range lead" that I buy from folks on this site. My Lyman DC 358-311 drops a bullet that is a traditional 38 special slug and it is almost a perfect clone of the ones that fall from my original Winchester “38 S & W” single cavity mold. In seating the 358-311, I seat the boolit so the case mouth is almost covering the crimp groove and just under the top band – then put a moderate roll crimp on them.

So . . . I loaded up my dummy rounds – 6 of them – and then measured the cartridge overall length of them with my digital calipers – just so I would know what it was in terms of feeding in the Henry if they worked. My dummy rounds averaged 1.520 for cartridge overall length – several were 1.521 and several were 1.5.19 according to my calipers. I took them into my office and took a look at the Lyman CBH just to review the loading data as it’s been a while since I loaded up 38 special – if I use the same loading in both the revolver and the rifle – I don’t really want to push them hard at max or near max loading data and I’m either going to use Bulls Eye or Red Dot.

It was while I was doing this that I caught the handbook’s listing for COAL – they show that the 358-311 should have a COAL of 1.550???? Clearly .030 LONGER than what mine measure. O.K. – I went out and just reached into my box of 38 special range brass and pulled out a casing and measured it – it was 1.140 – a R-P headstamp and as far as I know, none of the range brass has ever been trimmed – and in fact – what is in my tote that I pull from is probably from at least 10 different sources over the years and all mixed in together.

I know that this is no big deal and it will all shoot just fine – it has for many years. But . . . given my measurements – even if my brass were 1.149 as they list to trim it to – with my 358-311 boolit, seated to the crimp line and roll crimped – they would have a COAL of 1.529 - .021 SHORTER than what the Lyman CBH lists for the COAL of 1.550?

Again – this is no biggie nor a problem – but I am curious. The 358-311 design has been around since the beginning of the 38 special cartridge and it has always been one of the standard boolits for the 38 special. I have owned probably five 358-311 molds over the years – single cavity and double cavity – both Ideal and Lyman – and I have never noticed a difference in the boolits they drop. I realize that there can be a build up of tolerances – where the case mouth falls on the crimp groove – how much crimp and certainly case length. But . . . just looking at what I measured, .021 difference in COAL seems like it is more than a build up of tolerances? Did measurements change at the factory over the years – plus differences in cutting cherries for the cavity that would be off enough so that the Lyman CBH’s sample boolit would be that much different in measurement (location of crimp groove?)?

My 3.5 gr. load of Bulls Eye with the 358-311 is no where near the 4.2 max. load recommended so it certainly isn’t a problem with the range brass I use that is a bit shorter than what they show in the handbook – it’s just one of those things that I noticed today that I never have before and I am wondering how they come up with their 1.550 COAL when if my brass actually matched their stated trim length, how my completed loads with the same boolit would end up .021 shorter than their measurement?

Can anyone explain – or maybe I nee to go take a nap an look at this again with rested eyes? LOL

[tazman]

To muddy the waters even further, the listed OAL for the 357 mag with that boolit is 1.590. How can the difference only be .040 when the case is .125 longer? Crimping over the driving band when used in the 357 perhaps?

[bearbud]

I checked my notes and this is the COL I have with the 358-311, roll crimped in the crimp groove. 38SPL: 1.53”, 357MAG: 1.67” (too long for the GP100 cylinder) I do segregate head stamps but very rarely check the trim to length on handgun brass and I can’t recall ever trimming handgun brass in the 40 years or so of reloading. Bearbud

[Mr.skrimps]

This boolit loaded with 17 grains of imr 4227 in a 357 case shoots like a dream in my lever action. The Lyman manual oal of 1.59 is a compressed load and crushes the nose flat ( I shoot 16-18 Bhn) when I’m seating the boolilt, awesome load- one of my most accurate

[mdi]

Did they feed OK?

[Mr.skrimps]

Like a glove. Just to be clear I’m talking about 358311. Another great feeder is 368429 under 14.5 same powder. This one 1.56 oal. I only use Lee’s 357 Collet crimp don’t know of it helps, just always had luck with it

[bedbugbilly]

taxman - I never even went to the 357 data to see the COAL with the boolit - glad you mentioned it. I am going to load some dummy rounds of the 358-311 in 357 brass to see how they feed in the rifle;

As far as the dummy rounds of the 358-311 loaded in 38 spl. range brass - I expected that they may be a bit "kinky" in feeding in the rifle - I was very pleasantly surprised! They all fed like butter - I ran the six dummy rounds through the rifle about six times and was amazed at how they just flowed into the chamber. While the Lee 125 and 158 gr RNFP loaded in 357 brass feed very well - I'm going to load some dummy rounds of the 358-311 in 357 brass to see how they function as far as feeding - and I have a feeling that they will feed just fine.

In there end, it was worth the time to load up some dummy rounds of the 358-311 in 38 spl. brass as I know know that I can go with that boolit and with the 38 spl range brass that I have, go ahead and load up a quantity of rounds that will be good for general plinking.

Thanks to all for your input - sometimes us "old guys" need a bit of reinforcement to make sure we aren't going bonkers! LOL

I'm loading my 358-311 as they drop and I'm sure that the alloy in my range lead varies from batch to batch - that's to be expected. I also have never trimmed any of my pistol brass from .380 up to 45 Colt and there is no doubt that the case length of my mixed brass is going to vary a bit - but I visually check the crimp line and I keep a cartridge gauge on the bench to random check to make sure they will pass the gauge and with loading "as cast" - not have a oversize issue at the case mouth from a .359 - .360 cast boolit. In the end, they all shoot just fine.

Thanks again - your input appreciated!

Jim

[rintinglen]

The problem lies, Horatio, not in our stars, but in our brass.

About 7 years ago, I wanted to get some new brass for my target 38, a S&W 52-2. I bought a box of 250 Starline, new, from Midway and I set up my Lyman brass trimmer for 1.149". NONE of the brass was long enough to trim. Out came the calipers and I started measuring. 100 cases ranged from 1.133" to 1.148" with most being between between 1.139 and 1.144". Not one came near 1.155". When you start crimping something like those, some are going to be much more heavily crimped than others. That won't be good, not if you are trying to hit a slow fire 10 ring off hand at 25 yards.

I dredged up a box of Remington Wadcutter brass that was long enough that I could trim them to 1.149, and relegated the rest to my blasting pile. There, they remain and continue to give good service, though now they are intermixed with lord only knows how many other headstamps of indeterminant length.

[robertbank]

rintinglen your experience with the 38 brass mirrors my own only with new .45acp Winchester brass I bought a few years back. None measured .898" NOT ONE! I gave up worrying about the case length when using range brass with mixed headstamps and dubious history. Eventually they all split with lots of reloads on them. I use a lot of 38spl brass in local IDPA matches and with practice and all I usually one case in 100 split down the middle or around the case mouth from belling.

Over the Chrono I have not found a enough difference in velocity to worry about sorting brass. I load my 38spl to about 115 PF (vel*bullet weight/1000). I need to make 105PF in SSP Division so if there is a variance in velocity I have some wiggle room. I am not much of a bullseye shooter so I don't much difference in accuracy shooting freestyle on the move with my limited talent.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

A change in OAL over published AOL's does not necessarily mean the seating depth has changed. It is the seating depth change in smaller capacity cases that can have a serious affect on pressures.

The OAL difference could simply be the result of a subtle change in bullet form as the result of a different cherry used to cut the mould Lyman used vs the mould you bought. My pressure testing of seating depth affect on pressure in the 357 magnum indicate a change of .05" seating depth change can mean a psi change of 1,500 - 4,000+ psi depending on powder, bearing surface and other variables. Your change of .03", if that is actually the reduction of seating depth(?) is well within the MAP of the 38 SPL with that bullet and 3.5 gr Bullseye.....an excellent load BTW......

[robertbank]

Larry I noticed on the SAAMI site the drawing for the 38spl case the case wall runs in a straight line to the case rim. I find that on my older Dominion Brass. On other 38spl brass there is an indentation right at where the rim meets the case. Some headstamps have a deeper cut than others while I note in the older Dominion brass the case wall runs directly into the rim. Not sure if I described it right so feel free to interject some missing nomenclature. I suspect the variety of case designs are a reflection of the age of the cartridge. Can you add your comments. I assume the cuts or indentations if you prefer have some function. Not sure what ithey may be.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

The cut is usually there just to ensure the rim face is squared straight/flush to the case body to headspace properly. If just formed there would be a slight round/curve of brass at the the junction of the rim face and case body. With unbeveled chambers the cases would headspace on that instead of the rim face. Easier to set up the machinery to make that cut slightly below the case diameter than to swage the cases square to the rim face.

[rockshooter]

where i've found that this cut matters is with .45 colt- I couldn't get older cases into the shell holder. The cut has squished shut and they wouldn't fit into the shellholders. Only had this issue with .45 colt cases.
Loren

[robertbank]

Thanks Larry much appreciated.

Take Care

Bob