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Thread: Elmer's 44's

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Elmer's 44's

    Here's one I thought some of you might like.

    Howard


  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I liked the hats , good video.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Hot Fun with a 44! Those Desperados never had a chance. Thanks a lot for the trip down memory lane.
    I sent a great many of those 429-421 boolits down range using exactly that load when I got my first Redhawk. I am a little more worn these days and my wrists won't take the pounding without complaining, but were I to find myself confronting an Ursus Arctos Horriblis in my backyard, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with some of Elmer's wrist benders in one of my 44's.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Flyers.....WHY does there ALWAYS seem to be one flyer no matter what I do?!?!?!?! I know, I know...there's several reasons. Glad to see I'm not the only one....

    Good video. One of maybe 5 I've ever watched
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    Good stuff and real chrono info.......
    Last edited by ddixie884; 06-16-2021 at 12:41 PM.
    JMHO-YMMV
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    gary@2texastrucks.com
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Myself, I don't think Mr Keiths load was that hot. Maybe at the most 1350 to 1360 in a 6 1/2 inch 44 Mag.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  7. #7
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    Thanks all! Those loads came right from an article written by Mr. Keith. The velocities are in keeping with what I've always seen from them.

    Howard

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Don't doubt the velocities obtained just don't think that the original load was that hot. Each must investigate to the depth of their desire to know. Of course we will never really know. We only have what Whites Labs said about the load through Mr Keiths writings.
    Each must believe what they feel comfortable with.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    Don't doubt the velocities obtained just don't think that the original load was that hot. Each must investigate to the depth of their desire to know. Of course we will never really know. We only have what Whites Labs said about the load through Mr Keiths writings.
    Each must believe what they feel comfortable with.
    What are you talking about? Elmer Keith used 22 grains of 2400 with his SWC bullet, which was cast of 16:1 alloy. That's straight from the horses mouth. You can read it in every one of his books, and I'm sure he mentioned it plenty in magazines. It was listed in load manuals for at least a couple decades. The velocities HRfunk got are in line with everybody else's testing.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Megasupermagnum said.

    "What are you talking about? Elmer Keith used 22 grains of 2400 with his SWC bullet, which was cast of 16:1 alloy. That's straight from the horses mouth."

    I am well aware of the load and the alloy. Have shot both alot. I talked with Mr Keith many , many times from the mid 70's to shortly before the stroke. Even sent him cast bullets




    "You can read it in every one of his books, and I'm sure he mentioned it plenty in magazines. "

    I am aware of that too.

    "It was listed in load manuals for at least a couple decades. The velocities HRfunk got are in line with everybody else's testing."

    I said I didn't doubt Funks velocities, I chronoed the load several times at 22 grains 2400. I still don't think the original load was as hot as it is now or for the past several years. You are free to believe what you want just as I am.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 06-16-2021 at 03:24 PM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  11. #11
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    I have heard and read, although I don't know that it's been scientifically proven, that 2400 is slightly faster burning today than it was back when Mr. Keith was experimenting with it. If so, that might be the source of the discrepancy. That said, I've always seen the 22 grain/2400 load listed at a 1400 fps. The original .44 Special load in balloon head cases (18.5 grain/2400) was rated at 1200 fps. As I observed in the video, the 17 grain load (for solid head cases) Comes in slightly below that. However, on a warmer day, it might still make it to 1200 fps. Regardless of the exact numbers, these are still great loads.

    Howard

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    I said I didn't doubt Funks velocities, I chronoed the load several times at 22 grains 2400. I still don't think the original load was as hot as it is now or for the past several years. You are free to believe what you want just as I am.
    So you have shot the load, do not deny that it was the load Elmer Keith used in 44 magnum, and do not deny that the speeds are typical of what everyone gets... but you still don't think this is the original load? What are you trying to say?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    So you have shot the load, do not deny that it was the load Elmer Keith used in 44 magnum, and do not deny that the speeds are typical of what everyone gets... but you still don't think this is the original load? What are you trying to say?
    I think the velocity is much higher now. That is what I am saying. That is what I mean when I say "hot". In other words the velocity is higher now than then. That is what I am saying.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  14. #14
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    Let me put this out here. What I said was NOT meant to cause alarm, or cause for concern. It was based on my opinion based on my limited testing of different "lots " of 2400, tested in revolvers and a 6.6 inch Encore barrel that was at one time a 12 inch barrel. I sacrificed that barrel to test the "Keith Load" in. Then it was tested in my revolvers . The thing to keep in mind is. Keiths load ran around 1400 fps with 34000CUP by the "horses mouth".

    BTW, None of us were there when Mr. Keith loaded those rounds when he sent them to Whites Labs. We don't know how close the"lots" of 2400 were then. How controlled the "lots" of primers were them etc.. it is only a guess of which there are many. We don't know how well Whites Lab was at controling their testing protocol etc.. Whites did alot of testing for the factories too at that time. The standard test barrel length at that time was 6.5 inch including chamber without venting like is used by some now.
    There is going to be many weigh in having little experience to those who have fired many, many, many thousands of rounds and ones that have thousands of dollars of equipment to those who have more firearms than the US Military but none if us really know.
    So it is all opinion.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 06-16-2021 at 05:08 PM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy derek45's Avatar
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    I saw that video today, . . . when I was supposed to be working





    22gr2400 / SWC is a stout load.

    251gr Arsenal #503 Keith

    22gr 2400

    average-1457fps

    5.5" Ruger SBH

    .


    NRA LIFE Member

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  16. #16
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    My 5.5 inch Redhawk ran the H&G old 503 I have at 1535 average with 22.0 2400 and Fed 150 primers.
    Hot "lot" of powder.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  17. #17
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    Ok, so you are saying the 2400 we shoot now is different, producing more pressure than when Elmer Keith was loading ammo. I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Unless you don't trust Larry Gibson I suppose. I'm sure you are aware load manuals for many, many years listed the maximum load with a 429421 and 2400 at 23.4 gr, well above Keith's load.

    Anyway, I ran this in Quickloads, I didn't take a ton of time to make sure every input was perfect, but with a 429421 and 22gr 2400 powder, it gives you a general idea of what a 10% lot to lot variation can do. Nothing has changed, it's normal manufacturing tolerance.

    -10% - 1330 fps
    +10%- 1533 fps

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Ok, so you are saying the 2400 we shoot now is different, producing more pressure than when Elmer Keith was loading ammo. I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Unless you don't trust Larry Gibson I suppose. I'm sure you are aware load manuals for many, many years listed the maximum load with a 429421 and 2400 at 23.4 gr, well above Keith's load.

    Anyway, I ran this in Quickloads, I didn't take a ton of time to make sure every input was perfect, but with a 429421 and 22gr 2400 powder, it gives you a general idea of what a 10% lot to lot variation can do. Nothing has changed, it's normal manufacturing tolerance.

    -10% - 1330 fps
    +10%- 1533 fps
    I will say this. You don't know, I don't know nor does anyone else know what H2400 was like at the time. We don't have any I would bet. I am going on what the "Horses Mouth" said, "around 1400 fps with 34,000CUP as tested by HP Whites Laboratories. With my 6.6 inch Encore barrel with the H&G 503 of the older design, Fed 150 primer, new Starline brass 22.0 grains of Alliant 2400 lot 782-Z020416 ran 1553 fps over a series of rounds. If a pressure barrel has tighter specs than a production barrel then velocity will likely be higher. Dropping down to 21.0 grains with the same components velocity ran 1461 fps, still higher than 1400 fps. It would take roughly 20.5 grains to run 1400 fps in that barrel.
    Now let's break down what we know. Test barrels were standard at 6.5 inch at the time including the chamber.. The "Horses Mouth" said around 1400 fps. A 4 inch Smith M29 with the cylinder included is 5.875 inches long. .625 less than 6.5 inches, okay the flash gap will bleed roughly 5 percent velocity, now down to 1330 fps, now let's just deduct an arbitrary 50 fps which is really being conservative, due to the test barrel being, hopefully, tighter just as good measure as test barrel GENERALLY give somewhat higher velocity than an equal length production barrel so we are now down to 1280 fps. Through chronoing we know that with 2400 and 240 to 250 grain bullets one looses roughly 40 fps per inch a barrel is shortened so we are looking at 25 fps due to .the .625 inch shorter length of the revolver so no we are down to 1255 fps in a 4 inch revolver. Now if we go to a 6.5 inch revolver we gain 100 fps give or take a few so in a 6.5 inch revolver we are looking at 1355 fps give or take a few. The Keith load produced a velocity level he was okay with so hence the load produced the Keith velocity too. Which wasn't a hundred fps more or a hundred fps less.
    I have found in chronoing 4 inch M29's with the "Keith bullet" , if there is such a thing, it takes between 20.0 grains to 21.0 grains depending on the primer and the "Keith bullet" being used to duplicate what I said above unless it a "screwball" "lot" of powder. No magnum primers are used by me in the 44 Mag with 2400.
    This, above is what I have to say. I am sure I will be picked apart on what I said above by the inexperienced to those that own thousands of dollars of equipment and more firearms than the US Military. So be it. You believe the way you want to and I'll believe the way I want to.
    How is that for simplicity?
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 06-17-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  19. #19
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    I will say that I enjoyed the video of Elmer's .44 magnum/special loads. Howard always does a super job with his videos. james
    Last edited by TNsailorman; 06-17-2021 at 07:36 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master FISH4BUGS's Avatar
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    So here is MY question - which bullet are we talking about when you say "Keith" bullet? Lyman 429421 or H&G # 503?
    If the bullets are exactly the same, fine. If not, then there should be a distinction WHICH bullet we are speaking of.
    There are at least TWO variations of the #503 with the major differences being in the width of the drive band that I am aware of.
    Does it make a difference?
    Probably not.
    But there were multiple references to the "Keith Bullet".
    I'm sure both will shoot far better than I am capable of doing.
    Last edited by FISH4BUGS; 06-17-2021 at 01:50 PM.
    Collector and shooter of guns and other items that require a tax stamp, Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check