Developing a load for a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 45-90

[flynth]

3 inches verticle 5 shots, at 100 is getting a bit extreme and is telling you the barrel is fouling out.

Is vertical dispersion typically indicative of fouling, or is it more typical for the group to simply open in all directions? I don't know. If you do please let me know.

Perhaps you're right about fouling. This group was shot without cleaning after all. Another factor is that it was an hour before sunset with an overcast sky. It might be my eyes.... I'm planning to do more tests with this exact load to confirm.

Another thing is the powder (not the best granulation choice) was compressed pretty hard to accommodate the lube cookie. Either way that is the best result I had so far without wiping so I'll be doing more testing going from here.

You can see my 1.5 by 1.5 inch group with the same exact bullet when wiping after each shot further up the thread.

The nose of a beagle bullet will not be round, it'll be lopsided to the axis of the bullet...

I'm not sure what you mean by lopsided. Perhaps the same as eliptical. The nose is eliptical. If you were to look at the cross section it would look like this(exaggerated) :

As long as the shape is symmetrical in relation to axis of rotation it will be balanced. Same as in balancing a wheel. You can add extra weights at opposing sides and they will cancel out.

Next stage of testing for this bullet for me is to make more of the same that shot best last time(probably 10 or 15). Also I will try the softer bullet with larger powder granulation to see if this makes any difference.

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:

Bad Ass Wallace, what about the diameter of driving bands? What is the best diameter in your opinion? A thou over groove diameter? I'll be testing your suggestions after I'm done with this bullet.

[Don McDowell]

When your barrel is fouled out you will get vertical like nobodies business. You can blame on everything from Brexit to the end of the ice age, fouled barrels will deal you fits for anything one could call accuracy.
When you beagle the mould you change the nose shape, and no its nothing like an elliptical nose shape. If the nose is out of balance you've lost the battle to find anything even approaching accuracy.

[Edward]

When your barrel is fouled out you will get vertical like nobodies business. You can blame on everything from Brexit to the end of the ice age, fouled barrels will deal you fits for anything one could call accuracy.
When you beagle the mould you change the nose shape, and no its nothing like an elliptical nose shape. If the nose is out of balance you've lost the battle to find anything even approaching accuracy.

A+ AGAIN well said /Ed

[flynth]

When you beagle the mould you change the nose shape, and no its nothing like an elliptical nose shape. If the nose is out of balance you've lost the battle to find anything even approaching accuracy.

Just out of curiosity. Is this coming from bad experiences you had with "beagled" molds, your measurements, or you're estimating that's what happens?

I haven't measured the nose precisely yet. I'll do that tomorrow. However, I did measure driving bands and they are symmetrical and elliptic as on my drawing (before sizing). Two diameters are 0.460 and 0.462. I'm expecting the nose to follow the same proportion.

Here you have more info about "beagling"
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...%93beagling%94

Also Google it and you'll find people claiming it works. Either way we're going to find out soon enough.

[indian joe]

Just out of curiosity. Is this coming from bad experiences you had with "beagled" molds, your measurements, or you're estimating that's what happens?

I haven't measured the nose precisely yet. I'll do that tomorrow. However, I did measure driving bands and they are symmetrical and elliptic as on my drawing (before sizing). Two diameters are 0.460 and 0.462. I'm expecting the nose to follow the same proportion.

Here you have more info about "beagling"
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...%93beagling%94

Also Google it and you'll find people claiming it works. Either way we're going to find out soon enough.

Adding to Dons post - the body of the boolit will also be out of round as will be the lube grooves - how much? does it matter? little things add up - boolit stability is a bit of a phenomenon for most of us - I had an experience with a smokeless rifle where an extra half grain of powder brought it back from hat size keyhole groups to the expected 1" at 100yds - also had an educational experience with the 5003R LEE boolit - blokes here (including Don) told me it was a waste of time - I persisted - had an early version of the mold that had shot ok - LEE changed the design slightly - stuffed it completely for me - but I didnt figure that out until I shot it in the wind - on a dead calm day the thing was stable to 600yards - some wind and its going through the board sideways at 400 .
Back to the Q at hand - I would take the beagled boolit over the undersize version any day - never had luck with undersized - maybe my alloy is too hard? (after ageing in storage my boolits are about 12BHN - pencil tested - thought I was doing softer than that!!!)

[Don McDowell]

Ok you win, someone puts something up and Google finds it, it's got to be the god's honest truth.

[flynth]

Adding to Dons post - the body of the boolit will also be out of round as will be the lube grooves - how much? does it matter? little things add up - boolit stability is a bit of a phenomenon for most of us - I had an experience with a smokeless rifle where an extra half grain of powder brought it back from hat size keyhole groups to the expected 1" at 100yds - also had an educational experience with the 5003R LEE boolit - blokes here (including Don) told me it was a waste of time - I persisted - had an early version of the mold that had shot ok - LEE changed the design slightly - stuffed it completely for me - but I didnt figure that out until I shot it in the wind - on a dead calm day the thing was stable to 600yards - some wind and its going through the board sideways at 400 .

Well, that's unfortunate. 500-3R is/was on my list of molds to test. How about Lyman 677? Local people claim it works well on accord of two front driving bands being bore size in lieu of a bore riding nose.

Maybe in the end of all this I'll end up having to make a mold for a PGT with a nose sized to the bore and driving bands at. 459 or. 460.

[indian joe]

Well, that's unfortunate. 500-3R is/was on my list of molds to test. How about Lyman 677? Local people claim it works well on accord of two front driving bands being bore size in lieu of a bore riding nose.

Maybe in the end of all this I'll end up having to make a mold for a PGT with a nose sized to the bore and driving bands at. 459 or. 460.

That 500LEE will shoot fine out a couple hundred yards - If you have the mold try it - nice big lube grooves - you wont foul out with it - If it works that points you to boolit size and lube. If you want a lighter boolit the LEE 405 HB is worth a look a couple of those groups I posted were shot with it (modified as I stated)

[Don McDowell]

Flynth, you should be able to locate reasonably local, and 450 gr bullet intended for the 577 450 martini, diameter should be around .460, cast from 20-1 or 16-1 it should give good service from 100-1000.
Or just break down and get Pedersoli's 535 gr bullet mould.

[Edward]

Flynth, you should be able to locate reasonably local, and 450 gr bullet intended for the 577 450 martini, diameter should be around .460, cast from 20-1 or 16-1 it should give good service from 100-1000.
Or just break down and get Pedersoli's 535 gr bullet mould.

Yer a patient man/Ed

[tmanbuckhunter]

Flynth, might I suggest instead of doubting or questioning the wisdom posted here, to simply try it. You have very experienced shooters who have been there, and done that telling you how to make that rifle talk the way you want it to talk. At the end of the day, even with a beagled mold, you're still trying to shove a short bullet thru a fast twist barrel that needs a longer bullet, regardless of weight. You're trying to blend oil and water here.

Beagled molds are fine for pistols and plinking. When you step into the BPCR world where your 500gr 1" long bullet moving 1100 fps spends that much time in the wind, everything must be perfect.

[flynth]

That 500LEE will shoot fine out a couple hundred yards - If you have the mold try it - nice big lube grooves - you wont foul out with it - If it works that points you to boolit size and lube. If you want a lighter boolit the LEE 405 HB is worth a look a couple of those groups I posted were shot with it (modified as I stated)

Yes I do, and I will Also Lee 405 HB is coming in the mail.

Flynth, you should be able to locate reasonably local, and 450 gr bullet intended for the 577 450 martini, diameter should be around .460, cast from 20-1 or 16-1 it should give good service from 100-1000.
Or just break down and get Pedersoli's 535 gr bullet mould.

Thanks. That martini bullet I think it is Lee 457-450-F. If that's the one. Yes it is available locally. It is always good to have alternatives to try. The pedersoli mold must be what they call U312. It looks identical to Lyman 457132 (so called new postell). I have that mold so I'll be casting some bullets with it to test.

Later edit:
So I unbeagled some of my molds including Lee 500-3R, Lyman 677, Lyman 457132(Postell) and they are all pretty much useless as (with exception of the Postell) they cast 0.4585 bullets. The Postell mold (457132) casts 0.460 driving bands, but the nose is too small at 0.447.

[indian joe]

Yes I do, and I will Also Lee 405 HB is coming in the mail.



Thanks. That martini bullet I think it is Lee 457-450-F. If that's the one. Yes it is available locally. It is always good to have alternatives to try. The pedersoli mold must be what they call U312. It looks identical to Lyman 457132 (so called new postell). I have that mold so I'll be casting some bullets with it to test.

Later edit:
So I unbeagled some of my molds including Lee 500-3R, Lyman 677, Lyman 457132(Postell) and they are all pretty much useless as (with exception of the Postell) they cast 0.4585 bullets. The Postell mold (457132) casts 0.460 driving bands, but the nose is too small at 0.447.

I dont think Don is talking about that LEE mold (457-450-F) and I wouldnt bother with it anyways - 1) too skinny for a Pedersoli 2) dont carry near enough lube for blackpowder.

If you gonna shoot blackpowder without cleaning between shots
1) you need to accept a little less accuracy - not much if you get it right, but a whole heap until then
2) LUBE, LUBE, LUBE, and more LUBE, and it works a mile better if you can get it on the boolit rather than fussing with stuff down in the case - so pay close attention to the lube grooves on any boolit you chose and make darn sure they go in the case without any air gaps in the lube grooves too.

I have no science for this but I strongly believe that a solid , firm fitted (.462 or better in your case) wad is a big contributor to accuracy - stops gas cutting but also acting as a bore scraper I think.

[Don McDowell]

. The Postell mold (457132) casts 0.460 driving bands, but the nose is too small at 0.447.[/QUOTE]

So exactly what is it that would make that nose useless? It's only .003 under bore diameter and doesn't carry any lube..

Indian Joe is right, I wasn't talking about the Lee moulds.

[Rifle 57]

Firstly let me say that your "over thinking" the methods of getting accurate loads with your Pedersoli. A boolit that casts 0.4575" you are sizing to 0.459" when made of a hard 1:16 alloy???? I find that hard to believe! I shoot my 45/90 with an alloy carefully measured to 1:40 so that the boolit will obturate upon firing to completely seal the bore. I use a range of boolits and especially the "545gn PGT" (LHS of the pic) which is a custom lathe bored mold that casts 0.460" with a bore riding nose of 0.452" to align everything up at loading..

Your internal barrel measurements are all over the place, 0.4515"/0.458 at the breech and 0.450/0.458", with a 1:18" twist that is the Pedersoli standard and I have confirmed that measurement in all 4 of my rifles including my 1886 lever rifle in 45/70..



I use Federal large pistol, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 70gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.



Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect! Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

Quote from The Pedersoli factory:

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

End Quote

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:



How do I know all this? Comes from 40 years of shooting Pedersoli rifles including competing in 'World Creedmoor"

Very nice collection of rifles you have there Bad Ass !!! I am very impressed .

[flynth]

I dont think Don is talking about that LEE mold (457-450-F) and I wouldnt bother with it anyways - 1) too skinny for a Pedersoli 2) dont carry near enough lube for blackpowder.

Good to know.

If you gonna shoot blackpowder without cleaning between shots
1) you need to accept a little less accuracy - not much if you get it right, but a whole heap until then
2) LUBE, LUBE, LUBE, and more LUBE, and it works a mile better if you can get it on the boolit rather than fussing with stuff down in the case - so pay close attention to the lube grooves on any boolit you chose and make darn sure they go in the case without any air gaps in the lube grooves too.

I have no science for this but I strongly believe that a solid , firm fitted (.462 or better in your case) wad is a big contributor to accuracy - stops gas cutting but also acting as a bore scraper I think.

Thanks for this. I'm currently using a 60 thou wad cut from thick gasket material. It is compacted impregnated cardboard. I also have felt, and ldpe(containers to cut it from) to try.

.

The Postell mold (457132) casts 0.460 driving bands, but the nose is too small at 0.447.

So exactly what is it that would make that nose useless? It's only .003 under bore diameter and doesn't carry any lube..

Indian Joe is right, I wasn't talking about the Lee moulds.

Bad Ass Wallace said before:

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:

I'll find out either way, but it makes sense to me that the nose should match bore diameter.

Edit: I made some ammo with other bullets mentioned here. I plan to test it soon.

[Chill Wills]

BAW writes... "
So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:"

I think you have that backwards. The bore is larger at the breach and tighter (choked) at the muzzle for better accuracy.

[flynth]

BAW writes... "
So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:"

I think you have that backwards. The bore is larger at the breach and tighter (choked) at the muzzle for better accuracy.

0.4515 > 0.450 The direction in BAW's post is fine.

Also, good news is that based on a limited 50m test Lyman's Postell seems to be working fine (including without wiping!) despite undersized nose.

Another thing I recently found out this "shooting rest" is great for cleaning the bore and working on the rifle, but it is absolutely horrible as a shooting rest:


I discovered a rectangular block of wood under the barrel and shouldering the stock normally works much better than the red rest when it comes to shooting my Sharps from the bench :-/

I also recommend a semi flexible (8mm)delrin cleaning rod to anyone. It is very easy to make and there is zero chance to damage the bore with it. I've probably cleaned the bore at least a hundred times with it already and it didn't brake yet.


It has a normal brass jag on one end a handle salvaged from an old ramrod. Delrin threads very easily.

[Chill Wills]

Ooops! I read it twice and then I had it backwards! I guess I better finish my first cup of coffee before I post in the morning.

[flynth]

I finally managed to test the Lee hollow base bullet indian master recommended (405-459-HB). It shoots really nice. I've done all my recent testing on 50m on a reduced size target as I believe the ability to see the target well enough may have affected previous results.

The Lee HB shot in a really predictable manner regardless of the alloy when using the Czech Vesuvit powder(mix od 2fg and 3fg). I had 4 made of 1:20 alloy and 4 of my local equivalent of Lyman #2. I wanted to test it with and without cleaning. That's why I cleaned first, shot two without cleaning, then shot two more cleaning between shots. Then repeat for another 4. Interestingly those shots made with a clean barrel went to various places. Two shots each fired via a fouled barrel landed right next to each other. (There were two different POIs due to different alloy) Also I had a feeling I could have had much better results with this bullet with a better hold etc.

Based on this I'll be using this bullet in my lightweight load instead of the previous one. My previous good results with it must have been a fluke of some sort.

Also I found out the Postell cast from a soft alloy and with an "under size" nose shoots much better than one cast from a hard alloy (and with resulting slightly bigger nose).

I think I'll focus on those two for now. It would be nice to use the Lyman 677 as it can be sat well out front of the case so I could squeeze much more powder in, but I'll leave that for later.

Also, an interesting find is that the Lee HB bullet didn't shoot that far with 2fg powder. It needed the mix of 2 and 3fg. This was with no neck tension. I assumed it was because that 3fg could expand the bass better.