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Thread: Powder density chart weight.....

  1. #1

    Powder density chart weight.....

    If I知 happy with my Charge of unique in my 4570 , and I want to experiment with other powders( with I might add a ton of careful research First in the interest of safety ) , and I知 interested in being cautious about lots of empty case space , is there a chart relating to Alliant powders ? What I mean is how much space is left in my case if I知 useing blue dot or red dot or unique .....I have these and trailboss an Lil gun ..... if I fill my cases with ten grains of powder which powder takes up the most volume and which takes up the least volume? I already realise that trailboss more than likely takes up the most space

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Per the Lee #2 reloading book the 45/70 had 4.06 CC of useful powder space. Varies with boolet weight, but whatever.

    Some powder vendors post the Density of their powders, grains per cc, check the data sheets.

    The P-Max loading program, (available free online) uses the case volume to calculate load density and give the % fill and approximate burn time and % burn in the output. It is a shame that P-Max has such limited powder choices but???

    I'd bet Google is your friend here so I'll bet you could figure it out.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy 1006's Avatar
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    The bigger the number, the bigger the space is taken per grain.



    https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy hoodat's Avatar
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    Soooo... I looks like you could find the volume of your particular case in CC's (which could be done with a syringe) and then use the number on the chart for a powder, X the charge weight, and get a clue as to the case fill. I like it.

    Ima hafta print that chart. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Red Dot is fairly dense, does NOT take up a lot of space like Trailboss.

    That being said, I have shot the .444marlin in a handi rifle single shot with as low as 6.5 grains of Red Dot under 200 gr cast.
    Essentially a moderate level .44mag load in much bigger brass.

    You want to make sure you don't double charge. But I would run a ladder test from 6 to 13 grains with whatever bullet your going to want to use. Make note of good accuracy points.

    I think it might surprise you with how comfortable it is to shoot, quiet, and accurate out to 100 yards.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Red Dot is fairly dense, does NOT take up a lot of space like Trailboss.

    That being said, I have shot the .444marlin in a handi rifle single shot with as low as 6.5 grains of Red Dot under 200 gr cast.
    Essentially a moderate level .44mag load in much bigger brass.

    You want to make sure you don't double charge. But I would run a ladder test from 6 to 13 grains with whatever bullet your going to want to use. Make note of good accuracy points.

    I think it might surprise you with how comfortable it is to shoot, quiet, and accurate out to 100 yards.
    Red Dot takes up much more space than Most... but not what TraiBoss does... I find Red Dot loads can be made "stouter" and usually more Accurate...even with like same velocity

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy 358429's Avatar
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    I wonder if IMR 4227 and IMR 3031 are applicable for your application. I have used both in 308 Winchester with powder coated Lee 170Rf with no gas check installed.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy 358429's Avatar
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    Both powders are voluminous and low energy and can be down loaded easily. IMR 4227 may be better for lower velocity.

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  9. #9
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    i'm a red dot fan for that very reason!
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    That is a very good chart in post #3, will print and keep as a reference. Thanks
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government..... When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossfly View Post
    That is a very good chart in post #3, will print and keep as a reference. Thanks
    Yup
    Beats heck out of sliding the old Lee dipper chart, from powder to powder!!! LOL

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy 358429's Avatar
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    The slider chart is no good. Use the vmd chart in the final pages of the lee book for decently accurate powder mass per volume calibrated in cubic centimeters. It is only a resource not an absolute, always confirm with a balance beam scale. Your powder may differ in density from the textbook (humidity and lot number for just two examples of what can cause a different density).

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  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by 358429 View Post
    The slider chart is no good. Use the vmd chart in the final pages of the lee book for decently accurate powder mass per volume calibrated in cubic centimeters. It is only a resource not an absolute, always confirm with a balance beam scale. Your powder may differ in density from the textbook (humidity and lot number for just two examples of what can cause a different density).

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    Yes... But but but.... Same basic premise.. c.c. is volume...and grain weight is Density... again... the Sliding chart gives approximately the very same information... and been around longer than the Lee manual... By quite a few years...
    Something I adapted in the later '70's

  14. #14
    AKA: GRMPS Conditor22's Avatar
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    I think the OP is asking IF he has to worry about a lot of empty space in his case.

    My experience is that faster & pistol powders aren't as affected by empty space in the case.

    To be safe, check your reloading books and don't go below the lowest recommended charge for rifle powders.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy 1006's Avatar
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    I use the chart a with less precision than some of you have mentioned.

    I just fill the cartridge up to the capacity that I want with a powder that I already have. Then weigh it, then multiply the weight by the VMD number for that powder to get a Volume reference number.

    Then take that Volume reference number and divide it by the VMD of any powder that might be used and see if it yields enough of a powder charge to get the FPS and case capacity desired.
    Last edited by 1006; 06-08-2021 at 03:28 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy 358429's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    Yes... But but but.... Same basic premise.. c.c. is volume...and grain weight is Density... again... the Sliding chart gives approximately the very same information... and been around longer than the Lee manual... By quite a few years...
    Something I adapted in the later '70's
    Racepres I promise I am not singling you out or criticizing you in any personal way and if I gave that impression I apologize. In the quoted text I do agree with that mostly. I'm talking about the slide rule that comes with the dippers.
    I started out loading thousands of 357 Magnum and 9 mm using the Dipper set and the slide rule. Most of the time it would work just fine it would make good safe loads but it was overly conservative, I suppose it would be good for people who do not own a balance beam scale suitable for measuring gunpowder.
    I resorted to trimming fired casings to the volume as confirmed by my scale and then silver soldering a copper wire handle. I never had a powder measure dispenser until several months ago. Oh my how that thing is so nice! and it is just the cheapies Lee perfect powder measure. If you look at the back of the lees book at the numbers they provide for powder mass for volume and then compare it do the same data presented in the slide card that comes with the Dipper set you'll see what I'm talking about.

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  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy 1006's Avatar
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    This spreadsheet just multiplies the second column by the third column to give a reference volume for the largest volume of powder I want in my 9mm minor loads to achieve my preferred velocity of 1025fps (IPSC minor+a fudge factor) with a 125 grain cast bullet. The actual grain weights are interpolated values from a load manual or a personally verified value in my pistol that normally produced the slowest velocity for a given load.

    Clays and Solo1000, two of my favorites, barely fit and tend to spill as they go around the Dillon 650. I like to keep my volume reference number below .500. For the OP: you will want a number that gives enough capacity to avoid too much extra space- it will be tough to do on a 45/70 with out Trail Boss. Click image for larger version. 

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    FYI: the chart is just for reference, not intended for safe load data.
    Last edited by 1006; 06-08-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1006 View Post
    I use the chart a with less precision than some of you have mentioned.

    I just fill the cartridge up to the capacity that I want with a powder that I already have. Then weigh it, then multiply the weight by the VMD number for that powder to get a Volume reference number.

    Then take that Volume reference number and divide it by the VMD of any powder you might want to try and see if it yields enough of a powder charge to get the FPS and case capacity desired.
    Kinda complicated for Me... But... seems Plausible..

    Quote Originally Posted by 358429 View Post
    Racepres I promise I am not singling you out or criticizing you in any personal way and if I gave that impression I apologize. In the quoted text I do agree with that mostly. I'm talking about the slide rule that comes with the dippers.
    I started out loading thousands of 357 Magnum and 9 mm using the Dipper set and the slide rule. Most of the time it would work just fine it would make good safe loads but it was overly conservative, I suppose it would be good for people who do not own a balance beam scale suitable for measuring gunpowder.
    I resorted to trimming fired casings to the volume as confirmed by my scale and then silver soldering a copper wire handle. I never had a powder measure dispenser until several months ago. Oh my how that thing is so nice! and it is just the cheapies Lee perfect powder measure. If you look at the back of the lees book at the numbers they provide for powder mass for volume and then compare it do the same data presented in the slide card that comes with the Dipper set you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    Oh Heck... I do Not get offended by much of anything on phone/internet/TV...etc....
    I have Not used the Lee slide chart for much loading...except like said... very conservative.. It does show Density differences...rather well in fact... as ie. 10cc is 10cc, and the weight varies widely powder to powder...
    But.. I do Throw a few weighed charges of any desired charges with various "measures.. and generally I can find a Suitable "measure" or... as said make one...as I much prefer thrown/volume charges..Unless I'm working up a Hot-Rod!!!!!
    ie. Seldom ..or now days, Rarely..
    I guess I have not been loading long enough to worry if a Published charge is the desired "density"... If it shoots good...I use it...Un-published loads... I have worked a couple, especially for wildcats, but with Caution.. Noting some Wildcats are Wilder than Others!!! LOL

  19. #19
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Or you can buy and use a copy of Quickload, which puts all that density data right at your fingertips, while calculating potential loads for any powder in the database.
    Eleutheromaniac

  20. #20
    Thanks blokes. That’s what I needed. ADI have stopped producing pistol powders in Australia. Stocks have been bought up. It’s all gone. Imported Alliant is the only thing that’s available but it’s just about all gone too .....I asked a gun shop the other day when the next shipment of Alliant is due to hit our country. They said maybe some time this year. It’s pretty dismal at the moment.....we are buying second hand powder off people who for some reason don’t need it. ....

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check