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Thread: A few questions re: .45-70 Postell

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    A few questions re: .45-70 Postell

    Hi guys, finally to the point where I'm ready to load for this cartridge. I have a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps that I will be loading the big 535gr Postell boolit (SPG lube) into (boolits sized to .458) and plan on using Graf's 2F or 3F powder. So far I've set the dies up to seat the boolit roughly .005 off the lands and loaded up a dummy round. Dummy round seats fine and the breech block closes with no issues. So before I start pumping out ammo, a few questions, if you would be so kind;

    1) Would you recommend 2F or 3F, and why? (or some of each?)

    2) How many grains should I be expected to squeeze in the case? (obviously not 70). I don't plan on using a drop tube but do have a Montana Precision Swaging compression die in .45 cal. Or would you consider a drop tube a "must"?

    3) I was hoping to not have to crimp but the boolit seems fairly loose once seated. With the dummy round inside, tapping my kinetic puller once on the floor popped the boolit completely out of the case. I have both the factory crimp built into the Cowboy dies and also a Lee Factory Crimp Die for the .45-70. Or am I doing something wrong? This was with factory new (out of the box) Starline brass, unsized or anything. Should I be sizing new unprimed brass before use?

    4) How much freebore is recommended on these boolits? I used .005 off the lands as an arbitrary setting, woud more or less be recommended for this load, and why?

    Any other tricks, tips or suggestions gratefully accepted also! Thanks in advance!
    "Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Going to depend on which variety of Graf's powder you have, if it's the relabeled Schuetzen then 65 grs of the 2f with a .030 fiber wad.
    If it's the relabeled Goex, then 70 grains of either the 2 or the 3 f.
    Full length size the brass to start, no crimp when seating the bullet. After the first firing, you may find you need a larger diameter bullet.
    It's always best to use a compression die to seat the wad at a consistent distance from the case mouth, drop tube or no.
    Your rifle will tell you where it likes the bullet seated to. Some want it hard into the lands, others want it off the lands. But seating the bullet to the driving band isn't a bad place to start.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    P.S. be mindful of your fouling control, wiping between shots is generally preferred to maintain the best accuracy.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Going to depend on which variety of Graf's powder you have, if it's the relabeled Schuetzen then 65 grs of the 2f with a .030 fiber wad.
    If it's the relabeled Goex, then 70 grains of either the 2 or the 3 f.
    Full length size the brass to start, no crimp when seating the bullet. After the first firing, you may find you need a larger diameter bullet.
    It's always best to use a compression die to seat the wad at a consistent distance from the case mouth, drop tube or no.
    Your rifle will tell you where it likes the bullet seated to. Some want it hard into the lands, others want it off the lands. But seating the bullet to the driving band isn't a bad place to start.
    Thanks, Don!

    Where do you get your fiber wads, or do you make your own?

    The powder is the Graf's brand, which is (I believe) relabeled Goex, as you mentioned

    Do you think the looseness of the boolit is due to not sizing the brass before loading?

    Will do on the full length resize of the brass. I will be wiping between shots and possibly using a blow tube, but at the moment only looking for minute-of-gong accuracy until I get used to this thing. Again, thanks for your reply!

    EDIT: Just ordered 1000 .030 fiber wads. Found them on Midway. Thanks again, Don.
    Last edited by Captain*Kirk; 06-07-2021 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Added info
    "Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    John Walters wads for the fiber wads with grease groove. I punch my own for paper patch.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    And there's no point in settling on mediocre loads. Build the best you can, and then look for any things to improve on them.
    PS don't build practice loads either. Practice loads should be an extension of the round count you need to shoot a match.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    I have always used 2F..

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    1 1/2 -2F I use OE and yes on the drop tube with a vibrater (I use an old electric shaver) #3 Yes yer doing it wrong when I"m done with my paper patch or greaser you can rotate or remove with little effort (Target use only) #4 Try everything , the gun will tell you (nobody here can!) Ed

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I use a full 70gn of 2P Wano with any of my 45/70 loads. More importantly cast a boolit that is at least 0.459" if not 0.460". The one on the LHS is similar to the postell but is the 545gn PGT boolit designed for the Pedersoli Sharps. It throws a boolit 0.460".

    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    You may find 1.5F works better for you. I know it does for me and my triple diameter 550gr greaser.
    62gr of Swiss 1.5F 200 yards and some chrono data after re-confirming to go with it.

    EDIT: I guess I should add, .060 Walters poly wad, tracing paper flash hole wad, tracing paper between wad and bullet, 25:1 alloy, about .135 compression, federal large pistol magnum primer, and starline brass. Load pictured was shot with no neck tension and jammed into the lands, but I re-tested with .001 neck tension and neck sized brass and things tightened up a little more.
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    I think I remember Starline straight wall cases are not annealed. You may want to before you begin.

    I made a nice drop tube thinking it would help me get more powder in. I determined it didn’t make any difference if I was compressing it afterwards. Maybe some people think it burns better, that I can’t comment on.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I think I remember Starline straight wall cases are not annealed. You may want to before you begin.

    I made a nice drop tube thinking it would help me get more powder in. I determined it didn’t make any difference if I was compressing it afterwards. Maybe some people think it burns better, that I can’t comment on.
    Using a drop tube allows you to either A. fit more powder in the case, or B. reduce the amount of compression on the powder column itself, or C. a combination of both. If you have a load that shoots great without using a drop tube, by all means, continue. Makes things easier.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    You have already recieved the best tips i can think of, but I will add it depends a little on what you want your loads to do. Fouling control is my main starting point, if accuracy is the only concern then wiping between every shot is a must so you may want to try 3f but if you want to fire multiple shots then 1 1/2 may be better and lube becomes a major consideration. Also every brand is a bit diffrent so Old E and Goex or Swiss 2f are not the same. Im only a beginner in this so most of what I do is from this forum and you will soon see who to pay close attention to. I have settled on the accurate 535gr with 70 gr of 2f old E with the first driving band in the rifling. This may not work with your rifle. I normally shoot steel 4x4 targets from 500 out to 1025 yards for fun and to make the 6.5 creedmoore guys shake there heads with this load.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack1 View Post
    You have already recieved the best tips i can think of, but I will add it depends a little on what you want your loads to do. Fouling control is my main starting point, if accuracy is the only concern then wiping between every shot is a must so you may want to try 3f but if you want to fire multiple shots then 1 1/2 may be better and lube becomes a major consideration. Also every brand is a bit diffrent so Old E and Goex or Swiss 2f are not the same. Im only a beginner in this so most of what I do is from this forum and you will soon see who to pay close attention to. I have settled on the accurate 535gr with 70 gr of 2f old E with the first driving band in the rifling. This may not work with your rifle. I normally shoot steel 4x4 targets from 500 out to 1025 yards for fun and to make the 6.5 creedmoore guys shake there heads with this load.
    That would be my 'ultimate' goal...to get it to shoot accurately out past 500 yards...but seeing as how the range I shoot at only has a 400 yard max limit, it's not that much of a concern yet. My #1 goal is to get some lead down the barrel (I've had this 4 years now and never fired a shot) and get it sighted in at 100 yards. The rest can come as it does. I know fine tuning is both a long process as well as an art and I'm willing to find out what it likes to shoot, but for now, some black powder smoke will suffice!
    "Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I think I remember Starline straight wall cases are not annealed. You may want to before you begin.

    I made a nice drop tube thinking it would help me get more powder in. I determined it didn’t make any difference if I was compressing it afterwards. Maybe some people think it burns better, that I can’t comment on.
    81 grains OE 1 1/2 F with a 30 in drop tube /low 70s with out yup there's a difference/Ed

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace View Post
    I use a full 70gn of 2P Wano with any of my 45/70 loads. More importantly cast a boolit that is at least 0.459" if not 0.460". The one on the LHS is similar to the postell but is the 545gn PGT boolit designed for the Pedersoli Sharps. It throws a boolit 0.460".

    Wallace gives good advice - Pedersoli barrels love fat boolits ---sized .460 is fine

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I use Federal large pistol, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

    This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 70gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

    Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.



    Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

    In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect! Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

    Quote from The Pedersoli factory

    So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

    Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.
    End Quote



    So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/458" at the muzzle to 0.452/0.458 at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:
    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmanbuckhunter View Post
    Using a drop tube allows you to either A. fit more powder in the case, or B. reduce the amount of compression on the powder column itself, or C. a combination of both. If you have a load that shoots great without using a drop tube, by all means, continue. Makes things easier.
    Using a drop tube does make a difference the way the powder compacts.
    Below is what a compressed powder looks like. It starts from the left.
    .050"
    .100"
    .200"
    .300"
    .400"
    .500"
    At .200 you are starting to see a solid mass and with the drop tube that solid mass starts sooner compressing the powder.
    I think when using the old Goex that a lot of shooters using that powder compressed it around .300" or more to get a clean burn.I don't think it was touch of a hotter burn over the solid compressed mass sort of scrapped the fouling out and if you ever checked the top of the snow or better yet use 2 20' 4" pipes split and clamped together and shoot through it then weigh the unburned powder you would find a lot of unburned powder with the higher compression gets.

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  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Using a drop tube does make a difference the way the powder compacts.
    Below is what a compressed powder looks like. It starts from the left.
    .050"
    .100"
    .200"
    .300"
    .400"
    .500"
    At .200 you are starting to see a solid mass and with the drop tube that solid mass starts sooner compressing the powder.
    I think when using the old Goex that a lot of shooters using that powder compressed it around .300" or more to get a clean burn.I don't think it was touch of a hotter burn over the solid compressed mass sort of scrapped the fouling out and if you ever checked the top of the snow or better yet use 2 20' 4" pipes split and clamped together and shoot through it then weigh the unburned powder you would find a lot of unburned powder with the higher compression gets.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Trust me, I'm well aware of the virtues of a drop tube and use a 30" drop tube with a slow pour, but if someone is just plinking and they have a load that works for them without using a drop tube, by all means, go for it. Like a lot of us here, I'm shooting for score and want every ounce of accuracy and cleanest burn I can get, so I use a drop tube.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy Captain*Kirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmanbuckhunter View Post
    Trust me, I'm well aware of the virtues of a drop tube and use a 30" drop tube with a slow pour, but if someone is just plinking and they have a load that works for them without using a drop tube, by all means, go for it. Like a lot of us here, I'm shooting for score and want every ounce of accuracy and cleanest burn I can get, so I use a drop tube.
    Are your drop tubes purchased or home cobbled?
    "Are you gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check