Advice wanted for a 458 wm build...

[44MAG#1]

It is easy for experienced reloaders, which the OP is not. There are plenty of ways to get in trouble doing so.

While I will agree with you to some degree using data for the 45/70 with proper data for 2400 or Unique in the 458 Win Mag isn't hard to do.
It is a straight case although tapered so to speak. Using a filler to keep the powder in the correct position is no problem and doesn't take an Einstein to do. Using ones brain is what it takes. I've downloaded 45/70 and 458 Win Mag and can testify to the ease of it.

[mbarasing]

It is easy for experienced reloaders, which the OP is not. There are plenty of ways to get in trouble doing so.

Very true... I haven't even looked a the reloading equipment I have, left to me by an old timer before he passed. Of course buying new tools is just as fun as buying new guns, for me anyways.

If I go this route I may need to purchase an old cheap 458 WM rifle to experiment with before sending my reloads down the suppressed barrel.

[mbarasing]

The integrally suppressed concept is very interesting. So is your application.

There are a couple of issues that need to be addressed. Will the rifle going to be used only for sub sonic loads? Will you ever want to shoot more powerful loads? BTW many .458 commercial bullets are not going to work well at sub-sonic velocities. Bear in mind most here shoot cast bullets that can be made to work. IMO, if you intend to use commercial bullets, staying with a pistol caliber gives you a better choice of bullets that work well at lower velocity.

Also, you are investing a lot of $$$$ without a lot of experience.

Do let reloading deter your choices. There are plenty of good YouTube videos that will ease your concerns. It is not a complicated process.

Anyway, based on what you have shared, I think the .458 is a poor choice unless this will be a dual purpose rifle. I would go with the Ruger 77/44. The .458 WM will be a heavier rifle and have a longer action...both things that negatively impact your goals of a light, quick truck gun. There are plenty of good commercial .44 bullets that will work well.

I cannot see any "need" for a full house .458 WM rifle for Texas hunting unless you just want to use it for ****s and giggles, or you plan a trip to larger game.

Yes, I expect to use the gun with typical standard 45-70 type loads the most. But experimenting with subsonics intrigues me only because the gun will be suppressed and so why not see how quiet it could be. As far as factory 458 WM loads go... The only time I see a need for it is when some hot shot asks to try out my new gun.

I usually catch on to things pretty quick and feel like reloading shouldn't be difficult and the endless options available for a straight cased 458 makes a pretty good test bed I would think.

[mbarasing]

I've downloaded both also, but that doesn't change the fact that experienced people have ruined guns doing so. Even the glossy magazines sometimes recommend tamping a small ball of filler onto the powder! Many is the barrel bulged that way. How is a neophyte loader to know who to believe?

I saw an article by Ross Seyfried in which he recommended tamping filler until the case will full and the filler was packed hard. It was admitted that he was not experienced in the use of filler, and this was his first attempt as doing so (with pictures BTW). Seyfried was a world champion shooter, and I have no doubt that he knew a thing or two about reloading. But he didn't know filler from beans! While filling the case with hard-packed filler might not bulge the barrel, it still makes my point that beginners at anything can and will make mistakes. It is best to start with an easy cartridge and use loading data and procedures published by reputable sources, which in my opinion does not include magazines or Internet sources (including me and others), with the exception of the powder companies.

These are some reload specs from Hodgdon... do they require filler? Or to ask another way, when trying out reloads from powder providers, are filler specified also or is it just an unspoken given that the case should not have a lot of void space and filler should be used when necessary?

[44MAG#1]

You are not going to find anyone that knows everything there is to know about everything there is to know anything about.
While one could get into trouble one should study on what they are going to do. The key is study. Something that is foreign to may. I've never seen anywhere a filler should be tamped down hard over/on smokeless powder unless, maybe it is black powder that is being reduced for some reason.
Study study some more and then study even more. Do not overestimate ones intellegence. Proceed with caution.

[mbarasing]

If fillers are not specified by Hodgdon, they are not needed with Hodgdon data. Follow the loads and directions as given.

Good news, thanks.



Here is some Hodgdon reload data for the 45-70 that I would be interested in trying out for the 458 WM. Notice the COL is about 2.5" for all loads. Could I recess the boolit to be flush with the 458 WM case, which is 2.5"? there wouldn't be a need for filler that way. Anyone ever tried this?

[mbarasing]

Do you have reloading manuals (note plural)? You should read them. They will caution against interpolating data. I recommend the manuals published by Speer, Hodgdon (which it appears you have), Hornady, and Sierra.

To answer your specific question, you are making dangerous guesses that can get you into trouble.

I have no manuals, only internet. IF I go with a 458 WM for the truck gun then I will get whatever is necessary to make it work for me OR I'll get rid of the thing a figure something else out.

I'm not trying to guess at anything. I'm asking questions instead of guessing. My first two questions to start this thread were: 1. can I shoot short brass in a WM chamber; and 2. can I download WM to 458 american (should have said 45-70) specs.

So far the feedback has been: 1. Yes, short brass will work in the 458 WM chamber BUT... accuracy may be sacrificed and prolonged use may damage the chamber; and 2. Yes, but you'd better know little and be smart with it or you could hurt yourself or the gun.

New questions I have raised are 3. Can a boolit be recessed into a case to help take up volume when downloading; and, 4. Will fillers cause problems with suppressors.

https://youtu.be/8QKwcs3a63c

I watched this video and at the end he fires the load and all the filler flies out--I would like to avoid that debris entering the suppressed barrel which leads me to question #3.


EDIT***
I posted the wrong video above. In that video he does the reloading.

https://youtu.be/TSzcHi8QNV8

In this video he shoot the reloads.

[44MAG#1]

Do you think someone should begin a graduate physics program before learning university physics?

I told how I feel in post 24. He needs to get with someone who can give him hands on training. But downloading straight wall cases with isnt something that it takes an advanced degree in reloading to do. Should he blindly start going wide flat out open like gangbusters, no. But with study and caution he can do it.

[mbarasing]

My current thoughts on reloading that may be completely off so please correct me.

The 458 WM is made heavy and strong to handle big loads and pressures... at least more so than the 45-70. Trying 45-70 loads in a WM should be safe pressure wise. The biggest issue may be voids in the case which could cause delayed burn or incomplete burn of the powder. Delayed fire can be dangerous but incomplete burn can cause a lodged bullet in the rifling, something that could be very dangerous if not noticed. To rectify these problems fillers are used OR bulky powders such as trail boss.

Are these fair assumptions I am making?

[44MAG#1]

Some of the "what if's" can be answered by your own experimentation. Most what you are going to get are assumptions and estimations. You are your best information gatherer through your experimentation. Will filler help in a large case with a small charge, more than likely yes. Will it always and forever help? Who knows there maybe some unforseen situation where it won't help. People deep seat handgun ammo so maybe it would work just fine in a 458 Mag case. Try it and find out using safe 45/70 data to get the answer. Will filler screw with the suppressor, you will have the test vehicle in your hands so again experiment to find out. Simple, if it does don't use it and if it doesn't use it. Slow powder can be used to keep volumn up. I've used Hodgdon 4350 in the 45/70 and the 458 mag. Then someone is going to be verbalizing on unburned powder etc. So what do you do?

[Gone_rabid]

A neighbor of mine has a bushmaster on an AR platform. To be honest I never gave this round a second thought coming from the autos. I'll look into this more, thanks for the suggestion. I imagine the ammo options are more limited but it's worth investigating.

I have a 20” 450 bushmaster prior to Remington ownership and I’m able to shoot milk caps at 100 yards with it. The bullet options are limited compared to 458. Here in the last few years my local Walmart started carrying the ammo.

[mbarasing]

I told how I feel in post 24. He needs to get with someone who can give him hands on training. But downloading straight wall cases with isnt something that it takes an advanced degree in reloading to do. Should he blindly start going wide flat out open like gangbusters, no. But with study and caution he can do it.

I have a cousin that does competition long range shooting. He anneals his brass after every shot and reloads and chronos, etc... a real perfectionist. In fact he goes thru barrels like I go thru ammo. His experience is with 6.0 CM or PRC or something like that. I spoke with him about this before posting here and he basically said the same as I've gathered here... "try it and find out."

At this point I think I'll shoot for 14" of barrel, like the encore handgun has, and then have the suppressor baffling bring the barrel length up to 20", chambered for 458 WM. After ordering I'll have a while before getting my stamp and the gun, (minimum 6 months); that'll give me time to get familiar with reloading some of the calibers I currently have. I have been wanting to reload for a while and the ammunition shortage makes me wish I had started sooner. Ordering a short barreled, lightweight, 458 WM will pretty much force me to start.

Thanks for all the brainstorming and suggestions, and keep them coming!

EDIT: my cousin shoots a 6.0 Dasher, not the above mentioned rounds

[charlie b]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

[mbarasing]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

That's interesting. I have never thought or considered using black powder in a modern cartridge. I'm going to search for this more...

[mbarasing]

I posted the wrong video above. In that video he does the reloading.

https://youtu.be/TSzcHi8QNV8

In this video he shoot the reloads.

[DocSavage]

FWIW go for the 458 WM as stated you can download the ammo and brass will be much easier to come by and in a pinch most of the standard belted mag cases can be fire formed/expanded. to 458.

[mbarasing]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

Nice resource, thanks!

The 45-70 and 450 marlin loads all have a COL of ~2.5". I sure am curious of the downsides to recessing the bullet into the 2.5" .458 wm case. My main concern, as someone who has never reloaded, is whether it would feed from the magazine into the chamber well. The edge of the brass may dig in or deform---maybe crimp inward like some .22 lr rat shot.

[mbarasing]

FWIW go for the 458 WM as stated you can download the ammo and brass will be much easier to come by and in a pinch most of the standard belted mag cases can be fire formed/expanded. to 458.

Now there's the dose of confirmation bias I needed!!! Just kidding, but seriously... if I can become a reloader then it sure seems like the best option for what I'm looking for.

[mbarasing]

"
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF YOUR LOADS
FACTORS THAT WILL INCREASE PRESSURES. SOME WILL BE DANGEROUS:

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended
DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

Found this on a reloading website. Says not to deep seat boolits in the brass. I'm guessing that pressures build up too much before the boolit has a chance to leave the brass. Apparently the long throat on a 458 WM (1.1" before rifling engagement) allows pressure to escape around the boolit.

Also... Has anyone used shotgun flake powders in rifle loads? what is the purpose of that?

[44MAG#1]

"
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF YOUR LOADS
FACTORS THAT WILL INCREASE PRESSURES. SOME WILL BE DANGEROUS:

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended
DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

Found this on a reloading website. Says not to deep seat boolits in the brass. I'm guessing that pressures build up too much before the boolit has a chance to leave the brass. Apparently the long throat on a 458 WM (1.1" before rifling engagement) allows pressure to escape around the boolit.

Also... Has anyone used shotgun flake powders in rifle loads? what is the purpose of that?

Here goes the internet confusion process developing now.

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended


DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended

THAT IS GENERALLY TRUE BUT IT ISNT WRITTEN IN STONE. ANOTHER BOOK MAY GIVE DATA DIFFERENT FROM ANOTHER BOOK FOR BULLETS OF THE SAME WEIGHT BASED ON THEIR TESTING.
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal

DONE CORRECTLY IT IS OKAY. THERE ARE SOME THAT DEEP SEAT HANDGUN LOADS. THE KEY IS REDUCING THE POWDER CHARGE AND WORKING UP. WHEN YOU DEEP SEAT YOU ARE IN ESSENCE MAKING A NEW CARTRIDGE.
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
MOST SITUATIONS IF YOU REDUCE THE POWDER CHARGE FROM WHAT YOU ARE USING WITH STANDARD PRIMERS MAGNUM PRIMERS ARE GENERALLY OKAY. THE KEY IS TO REDUCE THE CHARGE WEIGHT TO SEE IF IT IS OKAY THROUGH TESTING.

Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

DONT USE GREATLY OVERSIZE BULLETS. BUY A MICROMETER, LEARN TO USE IT. BUY DIAL CALIPERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM FOR CASE LENGTH AND OAL.
I DONT LEAVE CARTRIDGES IN HIGH HEAT SO I DONT WORRY ABOUT IT.

I wrote those in red and capital so they would stand out. Not in a condescending, smart aleck way. Moderators please realize this.