Advice wanted for a 458 wm build...

[mbarasing]

Hello all, nice community here--I've done some snooping around before registering.

I am ordering a couple integrally suppressed rifles a week from now and have some questions I hope you can offer opinions on.

Background: Live and work on a Texas ranch. Currently have 2 primary rifles that are used as tools--not toys. A Stainless Ruger M77 .243 with 4x Leopold built by Hill Country Rifles and a Stainless Marlin 30-30 I had cut to minimum length with peep sights.

The .243 puts meat in the fridge and handles long range predator control, while the 30-30 never leaves the truck and is used weekly if not more or running pests. I am ready for quiet rifles for my daily use.

Planning to order a 6.5 cm to replace the .243. I have used the .243 without issue on everything from elk to oryx but I think the 6.5 will give me a little more power while still allowing me long range predator control. The silencer will be the biggest improvement here.

Now... for the main question (but feel free to offer opinions on my 6.5 plans too) is the replacement of the 30-30 truck gun. This gun is used often, gets beat up, and needs to be short to allow easy use from a truck. A 30-30 is about perfect and I've never had a complaint. But an integrally suppressed barrel doesn't fit with the mag tube of a lever gun, so...

I was thinking about trying reloads--I have the equipment but have never done it--and making light loads for .458 win mag. Hoping for the performance of a 45-70. Feel like the heavier loads may be able to be used subsonic.

Questions:
1. can .458x2" American be used from a stock .458 win mag chamber?
2. Or.... can I load standard .458 win mag down to the levels of .458 American, (and below for subsonic)?
Edit*** note: I can have the gun built for .458 American but feel like a factory load would be better for resale if reloading doesn't sit well with me.

Thoughts and comments:
1. This will be a short gun, hopefully <20" including the built-in suppressor, but I will not be shooting factory loads often, if ever.
2. .450 Marlin looks great but seems dead and hard to find (as if anything is easy to find right now.)
3. Don't want autos. Don't want flying brass in truck, or the weight, or the bulk, or the complications.
4. I have a integrally suppressed 300 blk and am unimpressed.
5. The reason for the bigger caliber (.45 instead of 30) is to hopefully make subsonic shooting more lethal.

All suggestions welcome and thanks in advance,
Barasingha

[Mk42gunner]

I know of exactly zero factory .458 Winchester Magnums that are short, light, and handy like a .30-30; especially a cut down one.

I think you could shoot .458 American from a .458 Win chamber, it seems one of the supposed selling points for the .458 Lott is the ability to fire .458 WinMag from it if needed. But again the rifles are big and heavy. Point of impact???

Reduced loads may be possible, but I wouldn't necessarily call that beginning loading.

I wouldn't build anything in .450 Marlin do to brass availability, it was scarce before the panic.

I don't know about an integral suppressor for the .458, also do you really want to deal with an NFA item that stays in your truck?

The book recommended by Tatume is a very good read.

I look at the 6.5 CM (or the .260 Remington) as a modern 6.5x55, so it should do fine. Not sure about suppressed.

Good luck

Robert

[mbarasing]

You should read "Forty Years With the 45-70" by Paul Mathews. It is widely available; here is one source:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...5-70&kn=&isbn=

Mathews describes the Ruger No. 1 in 458 Win Mag as the best 45-70 ever built.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.

[mbarasing]

I know of exactly zero factory .458 Winchester Magnums that are short, light, and handy like a .30-30; especially a cut down one.

I think you could shoot .458 American from a .458 Win chamber, it seems one of the supposed selling points for the .458 Lott is the ability to fire .458 WinMag from it if needed. But again the rifles are big and heavy. Point of impact???

Reduced loads may be possible, but I wouldn't necessarily call that beginning loading.

I wouldn't build anything in .450 Marlin do to brass availability, it was scarce before the panic.

I don't know about an integral suppressor for the .458, also do you really want to deal with an NFA item that stays in your truck?

The book recommended by Tatume is a very good read.

I look at the 6.5 CM (or the .260 Remington) as a modern 6.5x55, so it should do fine. Not sure about suppressed.

Good luck

Robert

The gun will be built with carbon fiber stock, bergara action, and custom barrel so it could be pretty short and light. Not worried about the NFA stuff... better than ringing my ears a couple times a week. If a .458 won't work, I'll probably do a ruger 77/44 for the truck gun. It's funny that decent bolt 45-70 replacement seems like a unicorn.

I am definitely a newby when it comes to reloading. However, I can get win mag brass easily and there are tons of 458 boolits to play around with; figured that would be an advantage to learning.

I don't know about the free bore jump with the cut brass... some of my research says a ring will get buried into the chamber after a while. Then there is the accuracy concern. I saw a video of a guy load 458 win mag subsonic but he used a dacron filler and it made a puff when shot... I'm guessing that would be bad in a supressed barrel.

[44MAG#1]

I have a Ruger #1 in 458 Win Mag. Have shot 2400 loads in it and an Encore handgun I have in 458 Win Mag.

[mbarasing]

I have a Ruger #1 in 458 Win Mag. Have shot 2400 loads in it and an Encore handgun I have in 458 Win Mag.

Do you reload? Ever put cut down brass thru them, like 458x2 or 458x1.5? What do you use the handgun for and how long is the barrel?

[44MAG#1]

No need to cut down the brass. Just played with the Encore. Barrel is 14 inches. Had it up to slightly over 1900 with a 500 grain.

[mbarasing]

No need to cut down the brass. Just played with the Encore. Barrel is 14 inches. Had it up to slightly over 1900 with a 500 grain.

Do you mean that I can download 458 win mag for light loads without cutting them down? Ever try 400gr at 1000 fps?

[mbarasing]

What twist would y'all recommend in a short barrel 458 designed for heavy and slow rounds?

[44MAG#1]

What twist would y'all recommend in a short barrel 458 designed for heavy and slow rounds?

That is what fast powder is for. I use a filler and 2400. It is easy to cover 45/70 velocities in the 458 Win Mag. I am not going to buy 458 Brass and then start cutting it down.
Most 458 Mags have a 1 in 14 twist which is faster than most 45/70's.
No worry on accuracy

[mbarasing]

GR.: 385 gr
Bullet Type: Lead LRN (CPB)
Primer: CCI 250 Mag
Powder: Trail Boss (Hodgdon)
Case: WIN
Trim Length: 2.490"
C.O.L.: 3.000"
Powder: 16.0 gr
Powder: 19.0 gr
Velocity: 1,020
Velocity: 1,123
Pressure: 12,100
Pressure: 16,100
Diameter: 0.459"
Source: Hodgdon

Found the above on shootersreference.com

I worry about the filler hanging on the suppressor.

[mbarasing]

Sure, no need to cut down 458 wm brass... but why not cut down 7mm, 300 wm, or 338?

[44MAG#1]

What kind of suppressor? I
Do you have a pic of it?

[mbarasing]

GR.: 405 gr
Bullet Type: Lead LFP (CPB)
Primer: CCI 250 Mag
Powder: Trail Boss (Hodgdon)
Case: WIN
Trim Length: 2.490"
C.O.L.: 2.910"
Powder: 18.0 gr
Powder: 21.0 gr
Velocity: 1,040
Velocity: 1,082
Pressure: 14,500
Pressure: 17,100
Diameter: 0.458"

Another from shooter's reference .com

[44MAG#1]

I don't want the bullet wobbling in that open space. I want the bullet as close to the rifling I can get.

[mbarasing]

What kind of suppressor? I
Do you have a pic of it?

http://www.suppressedweaponsystems.c...121_140917.jpg

Like this. The rifle isn't built yet, I order the builds a week from tomorrow.

[44MAG#1]

What is that type of suppressor for?

[mbarasing]

I don't want the bullet wobbling in that open space. I want the bullet as close to the rifling I can get.

If I get to intimidated to set myself up for reloading 458 wm for the foreseeable future, then I'll go with a 44 mag. Can you give me a comparison between it and your light load 458s? (Your username checks out so I figured I'd ask.)

[mbarasing]

What is that type of suppressor for?

That picture is the guts. The sleeve next to it covers the guts. It's easy to clean this kind. They start with a big bull barrel and then machine the suppressor into it and the slip the cover sleeve over it.
https://www.suppressedweaponsystems..../bolt-actions/

[44MAG#1]

A rifle in 458 Win Mag loaded like you are talking about is basically nothing in recoil or blast. If that level of recoil is beginning to intimidate you you need to go to a smaller caliber
A Marlin 45/70 at the level you are talking about is child's play. In the Marlin 45/70's I had I typically shot 550 grain bullets at 1500 fps.