7/8 slug load using 1 and 1 1/8 shot load data

[castinboolits]

First off, I just want to say this site is great. The community effort to help and share is amazing. A couple members reached out to me and offered to send me manuals based on previous posts. It's just awesome what you all do for the common good. Thanks, to you all.

My order arrived this week. Hulls, wads, primers, etc. I have everything I need to get started without crossing over any data. I don't, however, have slug data which is what I want to get at first. I have Alliant 1 and 1 1/8 shot data. I just want to know what to consider when swapping slugs for shot and using a lighter slug than the shot load? Better to use one over the other? I'm going to start low, just looking for insight.

I plan to roll crimp new primed cheddite hulls, with 12S0 wads and 7/8 lee slugs over Red Dot as my first load. It sounds mostly like guys are using cards under the slugs to protect the wads. I was going to add some shot under some slugs to match the weight data, and cards under others do raise the slug and just get a feel for the results. Is OAL with roll crimp anything of a concern as compared to brass reloads, or just as long as the load is secure and not rattling?

[megasupermagnum]

You will be fine using 7/8 oz shot data for your 7/8 oz slugs, but 1 ounce data would be fine too. I wouldn't mess with trying to put shot under the slug. Normally we don't work up shotgun load, we normally just load what the manual says. In the case of loading slugs, especially the Lee slug, I think there is value in starting low. The reason being your slug should bump up to size when firing. With higher pressure loads, I often found they were distorting the slug too much. By working up from about 15% below the listed top charge, you can see if lower charges shoot better. Shotgun lead shot data is rarely listed to a max pressure, only to a certain velocity, so you have to watch that. I also usually work up shotgun in 1 grain increments. You won't see much change from 1/2 or less of grain of powder.

I would load the following, taken from the Alliant website.

2 3/4" Cheddite hull
Cheddite or Fiocchi 616 primer
Start 17.5 gr Reddot
Max 21.0 gr Red dot
Federal 12S0 wad + 1/8" nitro card under slug
Lee 7/8 oz slug
fold crimp

[castinboolits]

Perfect. This is pretty well where I was heading. I got some clear hulls so I could see how it is all stacking up as I get going. They were only available primed so I will be using Cheddite primers. I have never seen Cheddite and Fiocchi primers listed as interchangeable, is this just safe enough in this instance, or generally acceptable?

The thought behind shot under slug was straight up curiosity. I know guys load them as a defense load and I just want to see it, but also it eliminates the spacer and I could bring the load to the weight of the data. I was just interested to see what would happen accuracy and chrono wise. I suppose if you are having slug distortion one can assume the shot will jam up in the slug base without a card to separate it anyway.

I was going to start with 18 gr Red Dot from data off of the Alliant site, as well. Are we seeing different data or did you knock .5 gr off for a cautionary starting load? I also have 21 as the max, but the data doesn't list crimp or spacers. Again, different data, or are you talking preference and experience?

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...rid=4&gauge=12

[megasupermagnum]

If you look under 7/8 oz data for a Fiocchi hull, 17.5 gr is there. No big deal, no danger. There is no harm in starting at 17 gr either. At 16 gr, I think pressures are starting to get into the too low to perform well. Red dot is quite forgiving in this regard. In this instance, you could swap primers, as both are listed with the same data more or less. All loads are well below max pressure. The Alliant website doesn't seem to list the crimp type, but they are all fold crimps. You can use a roll crimp if you like, but a fold crimp will perform better here.

[castinboolits]

Ok, I figured this was the case with these two hulls, but this was why I waited to get the order so I could use actual data off the hop. Just to limit my confusion, ignorance, and possible mistakes.

However, to follow the logic, I could then scan through the 1 1/8 loads I have for cheddite, cross reference to fiocchi and use the WAA12 wads I have with cheddite primers for a load between 17-19.5 gr as they match up and are also well below pressure?

I'm just working through the process. If I'm on track this would work to cross reference a shot load or heavier slug. How about using the 1 1/8 data for the 7/8 slug? Too light?

[Hogtamer]

There is plenty of data for your application. No do not use 1 1/8 oz data. And use a hard card in the base of the shot cup or the wad will be forced into the base of the slug. Also the waa12 wads are made for the tapered Win. hulls and will not seal well in the very generous cheddite straight wall hull. Furthermore, the round top of the slug does not lend itself for a roll crimp.

[longbow]

It may depend on powder to a certain extent but as stated above pressure can be too low to ensure proper powder combustion if you use 1 1/8 oz. data under a 7/8 oz. Payload.

I can't comment on Red Dot because I have never used it. However I have subbed 7/8 oz. slug for heavier payload using Unique and that didn't go well!

I had limited powder availability but a couple of pounds of Unique on had and figured it was fast enough for the lighter payload. Not so!

Some shots felt and sounded normal but I had several that had little recoil and muzzle blast and they left lots of unburned powder in the bore. All the slugs exited the barrel but some not by much!

1 oz. data should work under 7/8 oz. slug but I wouldn't use 1 1/8 oz. data.

Longbow

[castinboolits]

Thanks for the clarity Longbow.

Hogtamer, I am not looking to use more data. I already have the load I am going to start with, I am just trying to understand how the data is being used. There is a lot of straight hull data that calls for tapered wads. I don't get it, but there is, which is why I am asking the questions. I've cut my hulls to see how they fit, and I understand tapered wads will change pressures and not produce the same seal, yet the manufacturers have the tapered wads in their straight wall data. maybe I will find these are safe but ineffective loads and avoid them in the future, but I can only ask for now. Same as you say the Lee is not the best for a roll crimp, but there are plenty of videos and threads from guys that are doing it, and doing it with good enough results that it is their favorite load. Enough so, that from a beginners stand point you get the idea it is the best place to start, and overall the better crimp option. I was told this by the supplier where I got my components, as well.

I am not trying to be confrontational, I am just trying to understand. You hear the mantra, 'follow the data' and 'shotshell components are NOT interchangeable', but that is clearly not written in stone, as there is much shared experience that the data can be crossed over, and components are being interchanged.

I have waited to put my first load together until I had the components specific to my data, but even in following that, the crossovers came into the conversation. I am just questioning things to try and get a grip. I have every intention to follow the data, but I want to understand as much as I can about the entire process.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are going to use a Roll Crimp on those slugs put a overshot card, or better yet one of the BPI plastic overshot cards over the slug so the crimp has something to get an even grip on.

Randy

[castinboolits]

This just got fun. Maybe it's just because I walked into this thinking I had 'er all figured out with a little reloading experience under my belt, but putting all these together had a different level of satisfaction than I get from pistol and rifle. A little simpler, a little slower.. IDK, it just makes me smile.

I loaded my first 8 shells today. Just to get a feel. I arranged them 1-8 as they were loaded.

I punched out my own spacer cards and was way off on the first one with nothing to gauge or compare it to, but it sure does get clear when you have it right in front of you. These are all Cheddite, I bought different colours just so I can identify different loads easily if I am making up a few. I gave them all a try to see if the colour (plastic composition) would make any notable difference in crimping, and I tried both 8 and 6 fold crimps and a couple roll crimps, just to see what I got.

I used the single pin BPI roll crimp. Although I got a beautiful roll on an empty hull, I have to agree with Hogtamer, it just doesn't work well with the slug. Unless wad height was a factor. The rolled Lee slug loads I have seen online were all done with 4 pin roll crimpers which could also make the difference between a factory quality crimp and what I got.

I'm reading through the lyman 5th Shotshell Handbook right now and filling in the blanks. I know more questions will come up, but until then, thank you all again for your input.

I'm going to forego roll crimping for now, but please comment if you see anything notable in the fold crimps. This was literally just a get a feel exercise. I will put together a few more tomorrow after I get through the Handbook, and maybe change up loads to try different powders to take out and test.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You're doing just fine,,, Keep it up. Now load a bunch, and then go shoot something!

Randy

[castinboolits]

I didn't get a chance to load up any others today, but I did have a look at the ones pictured. The second black load opened up. The one on the right, number 5 starting with the clear ones. Likely just not enough crimp pressure, or could it be too much card under the slug?

I've read a few suggestions to use 6 fold crimps for new hulls, but others said 8 point will hold firmer after the same amount of reloads. What are your preferences?

[Hogtamer]

The top of the payload should be about 7/16” below top of hull for a good fold crimp so adjust height accordingly. A six point is generally easier on the hulls and is used by manufacturers on #6 and bigger shot.

[megasupermagnum]

I'll try an answer your questions, if I can remember them all. In this instance, you can swap Cheddite for Fiocchi hulls, there is data for both, and they are pretty much identical. Ditto for the primers. Beyond having data for both, it becomes a lot harder to say when you can or can't make swaps. Nearly every manual or professional will tell you never to do it. Unfortunately if you are going to be loading anything beyond 1 to 1 1/4 oz lead shot loads at 1150 fps to 1330 fps (or slugs in this case), there simply isn't enough data to cover everything else. It used to be some places like Ballistic Products were all about maximizing shotguns, for slugs, buckshot, steel shot, high velocity, high payload, turkey loads, you name it. They have made manuals specific to each. Now, they have pretty much sold us out. They still sell some higher quality components, but 98% of their data is for lesser quality, obscure junk that they discontinue in 2 years anyway. They have given up on trying to maximize shotguns, and instead list the same style data, slightly modified. The worst part is they then delete all the old data. BPI is all-in on the high velocity game though, even if it makes no sense. 3/4 oz 1700 fps lead shot loads anyone? One could say, why not just use the old data? I did, for a long time. Unfortunately a lot of my old favorites now have things long gone. A lot of old hulls are gone, old primers gone, wads gone. I don't know any other way to describe how I learned some substitutions, other than I read a whole heap of reloading manuals, data, and lots of tests where components were pressure tested for comparison. Not just new stuff, but I have manuals from even before my dad was born. It is interesting how much more lax reloading manuals were pre 1970 ish. By no means am I an expert, just a guy who does it on necessity. So far I've been loading shotguns 15+ years with zero problems, not even a near-miss.

Your question on why there is data for small diameter wads in straight hulls is a good one. I don't have a true answer, as I too think it less than ideal. The truth is that there has been data like this ever since plastic wads came into existence. Why there is so much data in Federal hulls with Remington and Winchester wads is beyond me. It does work well enough with flake powders. Red dot will work just fine. It isn't unless you have a ball powder like HS-6, that wad fit becomes very important.

I wouldn't use 1 1/8 oz shot data for your 7/8 oz lee slugs. There's a chance for bloopers, which are no fun. There is tons of 1 oz data out there, and no shortage of 7/8 oz data either. Every test I've seen has shown slugs produce lower pressure than and equal weight of shot. I suggested that starting load based on what I've seen in the past. I've loaded the same thing, except I was using 700x and American Select, which are two powders very close to Red Dot.

You can use an overshot card if you roll crimp. You don't have to, they will work simply roll crimping until the hull is seated on the wad. It may help to trim the wad petals, but from what I recall, a 12S0 with a Lee slug is a great fit if you have an 1/8" spacer under it. No trimming needed in that case. With other wads it may help. I don't recommend roll crimping Lee slugs. I don't much like the BPI single roll pin crimp either. It works, that's about the best I can say about it. This is one area BPI has brought us down the wrong path. The vintage roll crimp heads are vastly superior in every way. The thing I don't like about my vintage Lyman, is that it really only works on 2 3/4" hulls. The BPI 2 pin crimper is much better than the 1 pin, and I used it for years. It is only available in 12 gauge though. Instead, I say skip BPI altogether for roll crimpers. I've heard much better things about the crimper from Precision Reloading, and it isn't too expensive. For the best of the best, I finally bought one of those quad pin crimpers from the reloaders network. It is fantastic, although you pay for it.

A fold crimp seems a more natural fit to me with Lee slugs. I've shot them both ways, and prefer a fold crimp. I use an 8 pt crimp if the hull already had one. If not, I always default to the 6 pt. I find the 6 pt takes easier in a new hull, and the less folds, the less places they have to crack. An 8 pt crimp takes a little more hull to form, meaning if you have an excess of space, you don't need as much of a spacer. It isn't much though, not enough to choose it for reloading. Instead the 6 pt offers more room in the hull, and seems to form easier.

Crimp depth is a whole other subject that can matter. In your case, you are way too shallow. If you take a calipers on the depth gauge, I measure from the top edge of the loaded shell, to the flat of the fold. They are rarely perfectly even, so I measure two sides, and half the measurement. You won't see much success with a depth less than about .050". I've had some claim that .055" is the holy grail measurement. The jury is still out for me. In the past I've found crimping that shallow worked short term, but then they opened up after sitting a year or more. I often crimp to about .075", which is what the majority of factory loads seem to use. I have been playing more with the shallow crimps, and find that if it doesn't load too tight (meaning compressing a lot of wads), and I have a nice taper on the end, it seems to hold. Speaking of which, your taper looks great, no worries there, you only need to set your depth deeper. A Federal 12S0 wad has a ton of cushion, you shouldn't have any issues there. It isn't until you get into the realm of buckshot or heavy slugs where you use hard wads, and 70+ lb of wad pressure where fit becomes critical. Those lead shot wads like the 12S0 are designed to fit a wide range.